Abortion Debate Forum - How much do you admit??? page 5


How much do you admit???

Medical Questions-> Health Forums -> Abortion Debate -> How much do you admit???

How much do you admit?

I know abortion kills a child; its still mothers option

40%

[ 10 ]

abortion DOES NOT kill a child; that's ludicrous

32%

[ 8 ]

abortion kills a child, but is ok only sometimes

[ 2 ]

abortion kills a child; that's why its all wrong!

20%

[ 5 ]

Total Votes : 25

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Birch

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Posted: 05-05-08 19:27pm


That wasn't a compliment. I find your views consistant, but ethically disgusting. Logic (or at least my opinion) dictates that 1. Any prolife philosophy that gives exception for whatever reason (rape, etc.) is about circumstance of conception versus sanctity of life and I find that abhorrent, yet 2. Any prolife philosophy that does not give exception for circumstances (like rape) is also abhorrent therefore 3. the only logical answer is to be prochoice.

aochriss

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Posted: 05-05-08 19:38pm

Beline wrote:

Thanks, Jules.
I just want to add that hypertension was only an example. The mother could be suffering from a heart condition as well. I just wanted Juju’s opinion on medical abortion.

Aochriss, Juju raised a very good point here. When would you start considering the fetus as a baby?

Quote:

baby: a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk;
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Reptar

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Posted: 05-05-08 19:53pm

jujujellybean wrote:

And believe me, I do understand about rape. If I was raped, and got pregnant, I would feel utter despair. I am pretty sure that it would ruin my life and everything i have come to know. The thing is, that doesnt'justify killing. It's nobodies fault, except the loser that did it, and so it doesn't make sense that the baby should have to take up the worst end.

You don't understand anything about rape until you've been raped. Just like you don't understand about an unwanted pregnancy until you've been through one yourself.

AyaMiyaki

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Posted: 05-05-08 19:59pm


For some women, carrying a pregnancy from a rape could be a constant reminder of the rape. Every sickness and discomfort could be as unwelcome as the rape itself. You really have that much lack of empathy for women that you feel no pity towards her for not wanting to carry a rape pregnancy?

jujujellybean

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Posted: 05-05-08 22:16pm

aochriss wrote:

Beline wrote:

Quote:

baby: a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk;
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

< span class="postbody">

How awful. I went to that website and it also says baby: an unborn human, a fetus.

That is like lying.

jujujellybean

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Posted: 05-05-08 22:21pm

Birch wrote:

That wasn't a compliment. I find your views consistant, but ethically disgusting.

Logic (or at least my opinion) dictates that 1. Any prolife philosophy that gives exception for whatever reason (rape, etc.) is about circumstance of conception versus sanctity of life and I find that abhorrent, yet 2. Any prolife philosophy that does not give exception for circumstances (like rape) is also abhorrent therefore 3. the only logical answer is to be prochoice.

Ethically disgusting is being a supporter of a holocaust. fifty million abortions. fifty million people KILLED because of abortion. Sick.

The only LOGICAL answer is this: (no joke I took an actual logic course; here is the syllogism)

A fetus is a baby
Abortion kills a fetus
Therefore, abortion kills a baby

And since killing is illegal no matter what in this country, it should be illegal. Hey, it's not america's fault that there are so many bozos in it willing to make this form of death legal. (wait...maybe it is....)

AyaMiyaki

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Posted: 05-05-08 22:39pm

jujujellybean wrote:

And since killing is illegal no matter what in this country

I'd like to point out that that's not exactly true. It's not illegal "no matter what". You're allowed to defend yourself if someone threatens your life or the life of a loved one. In my state, you're also allowed to defend your home from intruders. If I killed a man who was trying to rape me or who had broken into my home and threatened my family, I would most likely not be prosecuted.

Killing born people is indeed illegal. Abortion is not illegal. Therefore, abortion is not classified by our laws as the scary m word. That's your interpretation of it, and you're entitled to your opinion. But you need to understand that making abortion illegal will not stop it from happening. Are you aware of the abortion rates in counties where it is outlawed? Or about the health risks of back-alley abortions or abortions done at home? Do you only care about saving these unborn children, or do you care at all about the mothers? Are they not entitled to proper medical care, instead of risking infection and death? Does pro-life care about the women at all? Or are they all dirty whores who should have kept their legs closed?

There's a serious lack of empathy here. Pro-life indeed.

Birch

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Posted: 05-06-08 11:48am

jujujellybean wrote:

Birch wrote:

I don't know about semantic arguments you have with other posters, I know abortion kills a baby, embryo, fetus, whatever. That's not my point. At all. Or even close.

I'm talking about rape here. You would effectively punish the woman by forcing her to remain pregnant after a rape. C'mon, lady, you can't tell me that is a compassionate thing to believe. Let's take a walk into reality. The only compassionate, empathetic approach to this situation is allowing the woman control over her body, that control that was robbed from her.

Rape is a horrifying ordeal that leaves lasting scars forever. I would not force my will against an already forced woman.

Killing is not illegal no matter what. Abortion is legal, the death penalty is legal, war is legal, killing in self defense is legal, killing animals for food is legal, killing trees is legal...

You might want to go back to school and take a course on law.

aochriss

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Posted: 05-06-08 13:38pm

jujujellybean wrote:

aochriss wrote:

jujujellybean wrote:

Well then you think it is silly to use science. IT IS alive, IT IS a human in the earliest stages of development, IT IS a baby, because then you wouldn't be pregnant.
When, may I ask, does it magically become a baby? When the mother wants it? When does it just turn into a baby all of a sudden?
No you don't kill a kid in the street. But when you have an abortion, you are stopping a child from ever being in that street, killing it.

I'd like to see some scientific proof of the things in bold, please.

Sure. Lets see: it's not a cow, and since it is coming from a human, it is automatically a homo sapiens. It is a human embryo, that is obvious. And, since baby is what we use to qualify a little person, baby is what it is; look it up on dictionary.com and you will see under baby it says unborn fetus.

Your opinion is not scientific evidence. Let's see some actual links to scientific sites backing up your claims.

For example, here is a quote from an actual scientist backing up MY view:

Quote:

I don't know any biologist who would classify a single cell from a Homo sapiens as a Homo sapiens. Even a zygote, which may have the *potential* to become a Homo sapiens, but is not an organism by any stretch of the imagination, is not considered an individual Homo sapiens by any members of the scientific community that I know.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Bio logy-664/Classification-Homo-Sapien-cells. htm

aochriss

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Posted: 05-06-08 13:44pm

jujujellybean wrote:

aochriss wrote:

Beline wrote:

Quote:

baby: a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk;
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

< span class="postbody">

How awful. I went to that website and it also says baby: an unborn human, a fetus.

That is like lying.

WHAT? I was asked when did I start considering the fetus as a baby and I gave my answer. HOW COULD THAT BE LIKE LYING?

aochriss

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Posted: 05-06-08 13:48pm

jujujellybean wrote:

Birch wrote:

Here is what you are not getting.

"A fetus is a baby."
No, you consider a fetus to be a baby, many people do NOT. You have a right to consider a fetus anything you want, but so does everyone else. There is no ONE ANSWER to a question like this. This is why the only fair way to deal with abortion is to let every person decide for themselves. It is wrong to force your opinion onto everyone else.

aochriss

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Posted: 05-06-08 13:53pm

AyaMiyaki wrote:

jujujellybean wrote:

And since killing is illegal no matter what in this country

Excellent point. Arguing over the status of the embryo is analogous to arguing over the humanity of the rapist killed in self defense. Why kill the man? Why not let him finish raping you and be on his way? Surely just having sex is not enough of a crime to be killed over!

NeutralUsername

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Posted: 05-06-08 14:57pm

aochriss wrote:

jujujellybean wrote:

aochriss wrote:

jujujellybean wrote:

I'd like to see some scientific proof of the things in bold, please.

Your opinion is not scientific evidence. Let's see some actual links to scientific sites backing up your claims.

For example, here is a quote from an actual scientist backing up MY view:

Quote:

< span class="postbody">

When does the zygote, embryo or fetus become an organism? How are they NOT organisms? How are they not human? Does the DNA change from the womb to the outside? Don't they need oxygen and nutrients to live? Don't they grow?

Can you provide any OTHER proof that a fetus isn't human or a living organism?

aochriss

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Posted: 05-06-08 18:35pm


No one said that the fetus isn't human, it just isn't A human. It is part of a human, like my lungs are human lungs, if I am pregnant I have a human fetus in my human uterus. It becomes an organism when it is cut apart from the woman of whose body it had been a part. Then it would be a self-contained unit of life.

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Posted: 05-07-08 07:19am


If you CAN NOT financially and emotionally support a baby don't have one. It will ruin its life and yours. I do believe the sooner aborting is done the better. I am 22 and a student. I am not ready for a child. I can not financially or emotionally ABLE to support one. I will abort if i am that unlucky percent.

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Posted: 05-07-08 09:19am

aochriss wrote:

No one said that the fetus isn't human, it just isn't A human. It is part of a human, like my lungs are human lungs, if I am pregnant I have a human fetus in my human uterus.

It becomes an organism when it is cut apart from the woman of whose body it had been a part. Then it would be a self-contained unit of life.

A fetus is not a body part, like an organ or limb. It is a human in its fetal stage. The fetal human has its OWN unique DNA. Its OWN body is developing in the womb. It is alive. It takes in oxygen and nutrients and even gives off waste starting in the later embryonic stage. It has its OWN heartbeat, which starts very early in the womb (about twenty two days after conception). Yes, it is connected to the mother to survive. We all had to because we were very delicate and vulnerable.

Of course it is a human fetus. I am a human adult. Newborns are human babies. They are all stages in the human life cycle.
How did calling it a human fetus prove your point anyway?

Users who thank NeutralUsername for this post: jujujellybean

cmyked

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Posted: 05-07-08 11:53am

oopoopoop wrote:

2ccapezza wrote:

oopoopoop wrote:

jujujellybean wrote:

Babies are killed in abortion. Can't you see that?

But you see, not everyone LIKES babies. The point is to get rid of it before it IS a baby, because you don't want one of those.

If I didn't like you that wouldn't give me a right to kill you.

If I ever decide to take up residence in one of your internal organs, you have my permission to kill me.

No, I don't, because you are a born human. You are viable. Not to mention that's physically impossible.

cmyked

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Posted: 05-07-08 11:54am

aochriss wrote:

I tend to use the words "viable human" or "person" instead of "A human" because that's just too confusing.

jujujellybean

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Posted: 05-08-08 18:40pm

aochriss wrote:

jujujellybean wrote:

aochriss wrote:

Beline wrote:

Quote:

baby: a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk;
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

< span class="postbody">

How awful. I went to that website and it also says baby: an unborn human, a fetus.

That is like lying.

WHAT? I was asked when did I start considering the fetus as a baby and I gave my answer. HOW COULD THAT BE LIKE LYING?

Oh sorry missed that quote at the very top. But still; how is simply coming out of the birth canal make you a baby? What if it is half in and half out? is half a baby and half not?

jujujellybean

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Posted: 05-08-08 18:50pm

AyaMiyaki wrote:

jujujellybean wrote:

And since killing is illegal no matter what in this country

I'd like to point out that that's not exactly true. It's not illegal "no matter what". You're allowed to defend yourself if someone threatens your life or the life of a loved one. In my state, you're also allowed to defend your home from intruders. If I killed a man who was trying to rape me or who had broken into my home and threatened my family, I would most likely not be prosecuted.

ok to clarify, I meant just for no reason; or for a selfish reason.

Killing born people is indeed illegal. Abortion is not illegal. Therefore, abortion is not classified by our laws as the scary m word. That's your interpretation of it, and you're entitled to your opinion. But you need to understand that making abortion illegal will not stop it from happening.

Then let's just make all killing legal. I mean, it's going to happen anyway, right?

Are you aware of the abortion rates in counties where it is outlawed? Or about the health risks of back-alley abortions or abortions done at home? Do you only care about saving these unborn children, or do you care at all about the mothers? Are they not entitled to proper medical care, instead of risking infection and death? Does pro-life care about the women at all? Or are they all dirty whores who should have kept their legs closed?

Of course! Though it is true that most of them shouldn't have had sex in the first place. Hasn't anyone heard of abstinence? Am I all alone on this? Proper medical care does not have to include killing a baby. The thing is, just because something would still happen does not justify making something illegal because it is morally wrong.

There's a serious lack of empathy here. Pro-life indeed.

Can you compare that to the fifty million abortions that have occurred in the US alone since 1973? There would be FIFTY MILLION more people here if they hadn't had abortions. And you support it?