Question on personhood for the unborn Posted: 06-27-08 09:04am
Recently, in San Francisco, an unborn
child was partially removed from the womb
in order to have a renal tract obstruction
repaired. After the surgery, the child was
replaced in the womb to continue the
pregnancy. Was this a person while out of
the womb and then a non-person again when
back inside? Or, since the procedure
involves the removal of the lower half of
the body from the womb, did the child
achieve personhood for its buttocks but
not for its brain?
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AyaMiyaki
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Posted: 06-27-08 09:30am
I'm not a scientist, but my opinion would
be that, since the baby was still attached
to the mother via the umbilical cord (and
receiving blood and oxygen through it), he
was not technically "removed", although
part of his body was outside of hers. She
was still his only source of oxygen and
nutrients, and he was not breathing on his
own.
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oopoopoop
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Posted: 06-27-08 09:30am
I'm sorry -- are you speaking in the legal
sense? In which case, my guess is that no,
that fetus did not achieve any temporary
rights as a person.
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Rosierose
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Posted: 06-27-08 09:39am
I was talking in, I guess, the
philosophical sense.
But when does the fetus become a person
then?
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AyaMiyaki
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Posted: 06-27-08 09:44am
Again, I'm not a scientist. My opinion
would be that the fetus would become a
person when it was independent of its
mother's body, taking breaths on its own
or by way of another method other than its
mother. This would be when the baby is
delivered and the cord is severed, I
suppose.
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Rosierose
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Posted: 06-27-08 09:59am
So the baby is only a person when he isn't
completely dependent on one person?
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Moo
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Posted: 06-27-08 10:34am
No it was still a fetus IMO, having
surgery in the womb doesn't change what it
is.
Rosierose
wrote:
So the baby is only a person
when he isn't completely dependent on one
person?
if this is about to go down the line of "a
newborn is completely dependant on others"
can we remember that anyone can look after
a newborn, only the pregnant woman can
support the fetus
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AyaMiyaki
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Posted: 06-27-08 10:46am
I wouldn't say "dependent", necessarily...
but when the mother is the baby's sole
life support as far as oxygenation,
nutrients and blood flow are concerned,
that's correct.
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Rosierose
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Posted: 06-27-08 11:01am
Well, what if, say, a mom and a baby were
stranded in their house in the middle of a
snowstorm, and the baby relied on the
mother completely for food. If the mother
dies, the baby does too, eventually. Can
the mother decide whether or not she
chooses to feed her baby? Thanks!
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AyaMiyaki
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Posted: 06-27-08 12:17pm
The difference is, anybody can "feed" the
baby. You're talking about two totally
different things. When a mother is
pregnant, she is the SOLE provider of
oxygen, blood, and nutrition to her baby.
After the child is born, anybody
(theoretically) can care for it.
Your question about the snow storm and
whether a mother can choose not to feed
her baby doesn't have much (if anything)
to do with you asking if the baby's
buttocks achieved personhood.
If you're trying to prove a point, maybe
you should just come out and say it. Hmm?
Well, what if, say, a mom
and a baby were stranded in their house in
the middle of a snowstorm, and the baby
relied on the mother completely for food.
If the mother dies, the baby does too,
eventually. Can the mother decide whether
or not she chooses to feed her baby?
Thanks!
This is an interesting point. Because yes
she CAN decide whether or not to feed it.
Just as would be the case if the father
was trapped in the house with the baby, or
the nanny, or a random stranger. In those
situations, the infant is a person
dependant upon whoever happens to be
there. However, while a woman is pregnant,
she cannot withhold sustenance without
removing the fetus. Even if she stops
eating herself, her body will be removing
nutrients from her bones and tissue to
pass on to the fetus. So your question is
completely irrelevant.
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Rosierose
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Posted: 06-27-08 15:07pm
Besides achieving dependence, what else
makes the fetus a person?
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diamondsz
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Posted: 06-27-08 15:42pm
Rosierose
wrote:
So the baby is only a person
when he isn't completely dependent on one
person?
In philosophy the majority tend to sway
that it becomes a person when it is
capable of relying on its own source of
nutrient and oxygen, for others it when a
z/e/f becomes viable.
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diamondsz
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Posted: 06-27-08 15:49pm
Rosierose
wrote:
Besides achieving
dependence, what else makes the fetus a
person?
Nothing, it is not a person till birth.
Rosierose
wrote:
Well, what if, say, a mom and a baby were
stranded in their house in the middle of a
snowstorm, and the baby relied on the
mother completely for food. If the mother
dies, the baby does too, eventually. Can
the mother decide whether or not she
chooses to feed her baby? Thanks!
Smile
I am going to use your quote with my own
twist.
Well what if, I say a mom and baby were
stranded in their house and in the middle
of a snowstorm, the baby had 2 bottle in a
bag beside him, he goes three days without
a bottle, takes one and waits another 4-6
days before the other one. In the end the
father walked home and fed his child
although th kids was crying his heart
out.
Or maybe someone found the kids
The mother didn't need to feed the baby,
the bottles were already there, so if the
baby didnt rely on breast milk but could
rely on anything, then please explain how
it is dependant on the mother.
***********************************
The baby will try and survive, it has been
proven that once born, a infant will try
and crawl up, succeeding almost all the
time in being able to get to the mothers
breast.
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diamondsz
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Posted: 06-27-08 15:56pm
Rosierose
wrote:
So the baby is only a person
when he isn't completely dependent on one
person?
Everyone depends on someone or something
in a sense, the difference between a fetus
and a person is the fact one is aware and
one is not (depending on gestational
age.)
If for example a 14 week z/e/f was taken
out of the womb, it would die instantly or
within minutes...
If you take a infant and leave it without
food for a few days it would not die,
although the kid would be pretty hungry..
Different level of dependence, different
levels of age and there is no conscious on
a 14 weeks old as there is an infant.
Can you tell me you are not Dependant on
someone or something?
Cause I can guarantee your not 100%
independent, it is almost impossible.
From a philosophy sense, personhood is
demonstrated through ones ability to
think, ones ability to be aware...
Philosophy means friendship/love of wisdom
or knowledge, therefore in order to love
you first need a conscious.
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Rosierose
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Posted: 06-27-08 16:13pm
[quote=please explain how it is dependant
on the mother.[/quote]
In my example I was trying to say that if,
in some rare circumstance, if the baby has
no chance of surviving without the
mother's help, I was asking if it would be
alright if she chose to kill it.
But thanks. I wanted to see what the
pro-choice view was of the example and
everything. Thanks for answering my
questions.
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AyaMiyaki
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Posted: 06-27-08 20:14pm
Why is it only the mother's help? You can
substitute the mother for a father, a
sister, a brother, a next door neighbor, a
babysitter, etc. Anybody can take care of
a
newborn/toddler/child/adolescent/dependent
adult. Only a pregnant woman can take care
of a z/e/f.
It is not okay for a mother to decide to
kill her born child, neglect it to death,
or what have you. You will not find a
pro-choice person on this site who would
ever say that was okay. But to equate that
to abortion (which is where I think you're
going with this) is, to put it politely, a
stretch. A woman taking care of an infant
during a snowstorm is not comparable to
pregnancy.
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aochriss
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Posted: 06-28-08 00:25am
Rosierose
wrote:
So the baby is only a person
when he isn't completely dependent on one
person?
A baby is a person when he is no longer
part of another person's body.
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Snug
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Posted: 06-28-08 19:26pm
Rosierose
wrote:
So the baby is only a person
when he isn't completely dependent on one
person?
Yes. The operative word being ONE
person.
After leaving the uterus (whether via
vaginal birth or C-section), two
relatively important things happen. The
umbilical cord is severed, and respiration
begins. Until those events occur, it's
not a person.
And even if it was (legally) a person, an
unwanted fetus could still be removed.
After all, it's guilty of assault, theft,
and trespass. If an uninvited guest can
be tossed out of your house, then an
uninvited fetus can be tossed out of your
uterus.
Embryo- fetus- baby-person all are
the same..it refers to the same human
being in diferent development stages. But
you can say that in legal terms person is
when it's born.
