Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 675 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Right And Wrong Posted: 09-29-07 06:32am
what makes something right and what makes
something wrong.
Take for example pedophilia, we would all
agree that it is wrong.
but what is it that makes it wrong?
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Mommy35
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3165 Location: Vacationland, USA,
Posted: 09-29-07 07:20am
In my opinion what makes something wrong
is the emotional, mental, and physical
trauma an act causes someone. Whether it
be immediate trauma, long lasting trauma
that comes out later in life, or trauma
that immediately effects someone and it
carries through their entire life.
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UCanQuit
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 109 Location: SEATTLE
Posted: 09-29-07 09:25am
Come on! I see what you're tryingto do.
You're trying to tie in why whould
homosexulaity be right but not
pedophilia?
There is a big difference between two
adults meeting each other. Falling in love
with them. Having a relationship and
having a sexual relationship.
Then there's pedophiles that take
advantage of a child being naive. A child
being trusting. A child believing in the
lies of what the adult tells them, only to
have the adult sexually assault or rape
them.
That's not about love or a nurturing
relationship!! That's about a sick person
raping someone. Period!!
Same with the arguement that right
wingers give with their arguement about
sex with animals. How is it even in the
same conversation. You're talkking about
people that rape dumb animals.
Maybe if you quit thinking of
homosexuals in a one dimension. The sex
part of their relationship. You'd see that
they are two consenting adults that are in
love.
Eric
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Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 675 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Posted: 09-29-07 10:02am
"Come on! I see what you're tryingto do.
You're trying to tie in why whould
homosexulaity be right but not pedophilia?
"
actually i am not, your point is moot.
"what makes something wrong is the
emotional, mental, and physical trauma an
act causes someone. Whether it be
immediate trauma, long lasting trauma that
comes out later in life, or trauma that
immediately effects someone and it carries
through their entire life."
Often a life saving opperation can be very
traumatic, i dont think life saving
opperations are wrong, I dont agree that
it is this that makes something wrong.
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Jules
Moderator
Joined: 19 Aug 2006 Posts: 3760 Location: Merrie Englande, UK
Thanks: 79
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Posted: 09-29-07 10:30am
Hmm...perhaps it's an issue of consent?
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Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5542 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 89
Thanked:31
Posted: 09-29-07 10:32am
Guest you ever taken an ethics class or
read any of Kant Or Mill or anything?
You'd like it.
My belief is- something is wrong when it
causes more harm than good to another
person or yourself.
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 09-29-07 10:36am
Something is wrong based on three things
in MY opinion:
1. Does it violate your personal and
bodily rights?
2. Does it violate someone else's personal
and bodily rights?
3. Does it violate the rights of society
as a whole?
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Mommy35
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3165 Location: Vacationland, USA,
Posted: 09-29-07 12:10pm
You know what Guest, if your going to
quote me at least get the whole quote.
A life saving operation is just that "life
saving".
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marvel
Supporter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 1099 Location: Toronto, Ontario (but only a private message away)
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Posted: 09-29-07 12:44pm
Eiri
wrote:
Something is wrong based on
three things in MY opinion:
1. Does it violate your personal and
bodily rights?
2. Does it violate someone else's personal
and bodily rights?
3. Does it violate the rights of society
as a whole?
Mmmm hmmmm. I agree.
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Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 675 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Posted: 09-29-07 14:02pm
1. Does it violate your personal and
bodily rights?
I agree with you but what makes that
wrong?
2. Does it violate someone else's personal
and bodily rights?
again i agree but what makes that wrong
3. Does it violate the rights of society
as a whole?
and again I agree but what makes this
wrong?
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marvel
Supporter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 1099 Location: Toronto, Ontario (but only a private message away)
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Posted: 09-29-07 14:14pm
1. Because it causes ME emotional and/or
physical pain or discomfort.
2. Because it causes THEM emotional and/or
physical pain or discomfort.
3. Because it collectively causes THEM
emotional and/or physical pain or
discomfort.
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Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5542 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 89
Thanked:31
Posted: 09-29-07 17:41pm
Guest what's your point?
What makes it wrong is what we've all
already said. If you have an agenda please
just tell us so we don't have to play this
game.
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Birch
Moderator
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3963 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 129
Thanked:12
Posted: 09-29-07 18:46pm
Georgia59
wrote:
Guest what's your point?
What makes it wrong is what we've all
already said. If you have an agenda please
just tell us so we don't have to play this
game.
Heh, I wrote that comment in the other
thread about playing ping pong with Guest
(how can you keep doing it?) and then I
read this post of yours.
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Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 675 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Posted: 09-29-07 19:22pm
"1. Because it causes ME emotional and/or
physical pain or discomfort. "
2. Because it causes THEM emotional and/or
physical pain or discomfort.
3. Because it collectively causes THEM
emotional and/or physical pain or
discomfort."
Okay, i see what your saying, that does
not explain to me why something or someone
causeing you, them or others emotioal
and/or physical pain or discomfort is
wrong, its just a statement, like eating
Ice cream is wrong, there is no reason
stating as to why it is wrong.
So you have said pedophilia is wrong on
all these counts, and i agree but what
makes these things wrong?
"What makes it wrong is what we've all
already said"
and i have agreed with everything said
thus far, but remember I only took
pedophilia as being wrong as an example, a
premise that we could all agree on, you
mentioned all these things that makes
peodophila wrong, but what is it that
makes them wrong?
"If you have an agenda please just tell
us"
i do have an agenda, the mind is a
terrible thing to waste, lets call this an
exersize of our brain, there are no
loosers in this thread, we are using our
brians, hopefully we will learn from each
other thus we are all winners.
"so we don't have to play this game."
The whole world is a stage and all the
people are merely actors, you dont want to
take part, no one is forcing you.
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Birch
Moderator
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3963 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 129
Thanked:12
Posted: 09-29-07 19:54pm
Gu£st
wrote:
...
i do have an agenda, the mind is a
terrible thing to waste, lets call this an
exersize of our brain, there are no
loosers in this thread, we are using our
brians, hopefully we will learn from each
other thus we are all winners.
"so we don't have to play this game."
The whole world is a stage and all the
people are merely actors, you dont want to
take part, no one is forcing
you.
Har dee har har har...
You have repeatedly told people how they
feel and think without even asking them.
You are not interested in learning
anything about other's "brians [sic]".
If there is anything to be learned from
you, it is that people like you need
prohibited from making decisions
about anyone except yourself.
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Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5542 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 89
Thanked:31
Posted: 09-29-07 20:16pm
I just have this creeping sixth sense that
guest is going to try and get us all to
realize that God is the only way to know
right from wrong....
I know something is wrong when my gut
sinks.
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marvel
Supporter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 1099 Location: Toronto, Ontario (but only a private message away)
Thanks: 50
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Posted: 09-30-07 01:39am
"So you have said pedophilia is wrong on
all these counts, and i agree but what
makes these things wrong? "
My previous post answers your question. It
causes the child emotional and, many
times, physical pain. It hurts them, and
causes significant trauma. That is why it
is wrong. We know what it is like to hurt,
and, through deduction, also know that to
deliberately cause that sort of pain is
NOT good.
I like Carl Jung's "collective
unconscious/objective psyche" theory when
it comes to this. We know certain things
(in this case, specifically, about pain
and morality) collectively through our
experiences as a civilisation/society.
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Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 675 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Posted: 09-30-07 05:17am
"It causes the child emotional and, many
times, physical pain. It hurts them, and
causes significant trauma."
So what makes this wrong?
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marvel
Supporter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 1099 Location: Toronto, Ontario (but only a private message away)
Thanks: 50
Thanked:8
Posted: 09-30-07 09:51am
For the last time:
Human beings were naturally endowed with
the ability to decide what is right and
wrong for themselves. Morals evolved and
are continually evolving just like we are.
I would say that in General, pedophilia is
IMMORAL because of our collective history
as a human race and our experiences with
pain, innocence and corruption.
I am going to admit, here, though, that
tapping into a higher power of somesort
has probably helped with this discernment.
Unfortunately, though, this higher power
has been raped of all credibility by
several different power-weilding religious
institutions, and has permanently skewed
our morals as human beings.
Don't ask me again why it's wrong, because
that's all you're getting.
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Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 675 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Posted: 09-30-07 11:05am
"Human beings were naturally endowed with
the ability to decide what is right and
wrong for themselves. Morals evolved and
are continually evolving just like we are.
I would say that in General, pedophilia is
IMMORAL because of our collective history
as a human race and our experiences with
pain, innocence and corruption. "
so what of the pedophile who believes it
is not wrong, why are his morals wrong, if
we have all been given the ability to
decide what is right and what is wrong for
ourselves, surely individual human freedom
dictates that every person has the right
to act according to his or her conscious,
we believe pedophilia is wrong should we
force our morality on pedophiles, what
makes our morals right and the pedophiles
wrong?
If morals are evolving is legalisation of
pedophilia the next logical step in the
process of the way in which morality is
evolving?
If the law were to allow pedophilia,
whould that in someway lift the immorality
of pedophilia?
Even if everyone in the entire world
accepted pedophilia as not wrong would
that mean pedophilia is not wrong?
If what is right and what is wrong can
change or evolve as you say, then isnt our
correctional facilities, our prisons
incarserating future model citizens, isnt
the pedophile a opprsessed and victimized
indiidual of unevolved moral thinking?
I dont believe in individual human
freedom, but human freedom as a whole, i
do not believe in individual rights, but
collective human rights. once we turn away
from the rights of human beings
collectivly as you have pointed out
already we start to legitimise violations
of human rights based on individual
rights....but this is not my point.
My point is that we must have a solid
unchanging moral structure, something so
great and awe inspiring that it compels
even the pedophile to obediance. The
western world had this in the shape of
God, of Christian philosophy, it was
Chrisendom.
Today the ten commandments are being take
out of the court room, the bible is no
longer in the draws of hotels, the
unchanging moral structure is being
removed peice by pecie, the whole notion
of collective human rights is beig
replaced by individual human rights,
individual freedom as opposed to human
freedom as a whole.
I know that the philosophy of God and
Christ has suffered a lot that the great
and awe inspiring feeling has been
deminished due in no small terms to the
failure of Christians themselves and the
lack of good example shown from us, I
understand this, Since the protestant
schism (the reformation) christianity has
been looking in at itself, scwabling among
themselves
But dont be fooled it is also down to
those who want to change the moral
structure of the west, as the decline of
christianity continues the western world
as the churches disapear off the streets
and go under ground, as Christianity
becomes an untollerated belief system and
regarded as "bigoted" and the bible banned
as "hate speach" (Catholics have been
through this many times) what is it that
is going to replace that solid structure
that has built our society.
I heard someone say America is sick in
another thread, America is dying, the
west is dying. The life giving message of
Christ is being removed from its being, we
are all feeling it, Christians and non
Christians alike. The future of Amercia
and the west is uncertain but it will be
vastly different to what we have now and
what is right and what is wrong is yet to
be decided.
"I am going to admit, here, though, that
tapping into a higher power of somesort
has probably helped with this
discernment."
This is the truth of how our civilisation
has been built, our morals are dependent
upon the Christian philosophy and it is
this rock that is being taken from our
society, is the Christian ideal worth
defending or are we to become lambs to the
slaughter?
Do you want to abandon Christian morality
in favour of an uncertain morality, a one
where pedophilia may even be acceptable,
because it seems to me that the road in
which this evolving morality is going down
is a one where eventually pedophilia is
acceptable, if it is permissable and even
a legal right to kill children in the womb
then one must consider that it may one day
become permissible and even a legal right
to rape children.
what is right and what is wrong is going
to change and along with it, our rights
and our freedoms also.
So what is it that makes something right
or wrong?
