It would be funny if we do, because
provided we were given free will when we
were created, nobody chose it. Maniacal
lunacy this world be.
I find that either way is pretty crappy.
I'm not going to believe either.
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 10-17-07 16:41pm
Of course they do! Who is denying them
free will? No one and no thing.
I don't believe we were "created" so it's
blatantly obvious to me that we have free
will.
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Sandbox Party
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 7276
Posted: 10-17-07 16:58pm
are you referring to moral absolutism?
in the case of genuine free will... of
course we do.
i dont see any strings attached to me. I
can do as i please. when i please. how i
please. and with whom i please.
i might get into trouble for some of it,
but i can still do it.
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meblonde01
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2123 Location: ,
Thanks: 6
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Posted: 10-17-07 17:10pm
Yes we have free will. And we choose what
we will or will not do depending on our
beliefs..
Sometimes I do things I feel I shouldn't
or after I do it feel I should not have
done it. But if I did not do it then my
will would not be free. Something would
hold me down and keep me from doing it.
the little NO FREE WILL MONSTER!. Boy,
that was deep..
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Lion79
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 29 Mar 2007 Posts: 307 Location: Sunderland, UK
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Posted: 10-17-07 18:03pm
Oh, I dunno. I think to at least a certain
degree our lives (or at least aspects of
them) are determined by other factors
beyond our control, i.e. genetics, social
norms, personality etc.
But, for example, you're a witness of some
car accident or something. You can either
CHOOSE to walk away, or offer some help.
What do you do? You can answer now, but
how much will it reflect your true
actions? If it ever did happen (and let's
hope not) you might act differently to
what you expect, and this might depend on
where you are, who's involved, how caring
you are, how outgoing you are, what you
feel you 'should' do, maybe even the
weather. So even if you *think* you've got
a free choice in your actions, it may not
be so.
Meh, I dunno lol it's psychology, it will
never be resolved.
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Birch
Moderator
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3963 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 129
Thanked:12
Posted: 10-17-07 22:19pm
Lion79
wrote:
Oh, I dunno. I think to at
least a certain degree our lives (or at
least aspects of them) are determined by
other factors beyond our control, i.e.
genetics, social norms, personality etc.
But, for example, you're a witness of some
car accident or something. You can either
CHOOSE to walk away, or offer some help.
What do you do? You can answer now, but
how much will it reflect your true
actions? If it ever did happen (and let's
hope not) you might act differently to
what you expect, and this might depend on
where you are, who's involved, how caring
you are, how outgoing you are, what you
feel you 'should' do, maybe even the
weather. So even if you *think* you've got
a free choice in your actions, it may not
be so.
Meh, I dunno lol it's psychology, it will
never be
resolved.
Ditto.
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Jincks013
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 1173 Location: ,
Thanks: 22
Thanked:8
Posted: 10-18-07 08:13am
I am something of a moral abosolutionist
in regard to free will. I have the option
of doing anything. What I will do is
governed by my own experiences, cultural
norms and societal norms.
The Mayoruna deliberately put the
secretions of poison frogs on their
children in a specific ceremony; in the
United States if you did that Child
Protective Services would be all over you.
Neither is right or wrong; both are
operating under cultural norms.
Both have used free will to determine
whether to follow this norm or not.
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woops
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 Jul 2007 Posts: 222
Posted: 10-18-07 15:40pm
Eiri
wrote:
Of course they do! Who is
denying them free will? No one and no
thing.
I don't believe we were "created" so it's
blatantly obvious to me that we have free
will.
Yes you were created. In your mother's
womb, remember? I didn't say by anybody
or anything, just created, which is quite
obvious that we all were. Whether it be
by nothing or something, we were all
created, I don't care which.
"Who is denying them free will"? I didn't
say that anybody is denied free will,
quite the opposite, I'm saying that it is
forced upon you when you are created, you
do not have a choice in the matter of
having it, nobody chooses to have free
will, a fairly strange undertaking
wouldn't you say?
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 10-18-07 16:02pm
woops
wrote:
Eiri
wrote:
Of course they do! Who is
denying them free will? No one and no
thing.
I don't believe we were "created" so it's
blatantly obvious to me that we have free
will.
Yes you were created. In your mother's
womb, remember? I didn't say by anybody
or anything, just created, which is quite
obvious that we all were. Whether it be
by nothing or something, we were all
created, I don't care
which.
To create, there must be a hand doing it.
(not a literal hand). Having sex is not
"creating" life, it is causing your two
halves to combine and becoming another
member of the species. Life does not start
at conception, or fertilization. Life
started billions of years ago and hasn't
stopped since. The egg and sperm are alive
already. They do not "make" life.
The word "create" implies intent, and
that's why I refuse to use it.
But semantics aside, that doesn't matter.
No over-blow force created me. No
omnipotent being called me into existence.
No deity controls my thoughts. Thus, I
have free will.
Quote:
"Who is denying
them free will"? I didn't say that
anybody is denied free will, quite the
opposite, I'm saying that it is forced
upon you when you are created, you do not
have a choice in the matter of having it,
nobody chooses to have free will, a fairly
strange undertaking wouldn't you
say?
Again, I was not created. No life was
created. It evolved. Nothing "made" it.
Life literally developed into existence,
if you understand anything about basic
evolutionary theory. Nothing made it.
Nothing created it. Environmental
conditions caused it, but it was not
created. Again, to create, there must be a
being doing the creating.
Nothing was forced upon me. I was born,
period. Free will comes from the fact that
no person or deity can determine what I
do. That is how I determine free-will. I
cannot pass my hand through a table, but
that is physics stopping me. Physics is a
law of nature, NOT a sentient being. I
cannot "do" many things because they are
physically impossible. However, among the
things that I as a living human being can
do, nothing is preventing me aside from
the "laws of mankind". Nothing DETERMINES
what I do of the things that I am
physically capable of doing.
Nothing is pulling the strings. I
absolutely believe in free will, and so
anyone or any law etc that denies someone
free will and personal rights is something
I find very offensive. It's why I'm
pro-choice.
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woops
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 Jul 2007 Posts: 222
Posted: 10-18-07 16:51pm
Well, fantastic, you are obviously very
secure in your opinions and have given
them alot of thought. Good job.
Are you a catholic?
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woops
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 Jul 2007 Posts: 222
Posted: 10-18-07 16:54pm
Ya know, because they love the whole free
will thing, they even invented it.
Maybe you should think about joining.
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Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5542 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 89
Thanked:31
Posted: 10-18-07 17:02pm
woops
wrote:
Ya know, because they love
the whole free will thing, they even
invented it.
Maybe you should think about
joining.
What???
I agree with Birch and Lion. We have free
will in the sense that we are not
controlled by any higher being.... but we
don't in the sense that we are constrained
to the situation we were born in
(physical, genetic, environmental, mental,
sociological, etc.)
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
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Posted: 10-18-07 17:36pm
woops
wrote:
Well, fantastic, you are
obviously very secure in your opinions and
have given them alot of thought. Good
job.
Are you a
catholic?
Heck no, lol. I am not christian at all. I
am not part of any major religion.
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 10-18-07 17:38pm
I don't think "free-will" and "absolute
choice" are in any way related. If you
physically can't so something, you have
the free will to find a way to do it. But
if it is physically impossible, that
doesn't mean you don't have free will.
Your "will" is not related to your
physical body, so physical boundaries
don't factor in to your free will.
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woops
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 Jul 2007 Posts: 222
Posted: 10-18-07 18:56pm
So, besides all of these seriously
important things that are very horrible
and need to stop and never do, I'm in
control!
Eureka!
What a sad sad state of being.
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 10-18-07 18:58pm
woops
wrote:
So, besides all of these
seriously important things that are very
horrible and need to stop and never do,
I'm in control!
Eureka!
What a sad sad state of
being.
What horrible and important things?
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Rodge
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 905 Location: , England, UK
Thanks: 1
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Posted: 10-18-07 19:06pm
Eiri
wrote:
woops
wrote:
So, besides all of these
seriously important things that are very
horrible and need to stop and never do,
I'm in control!
Eureka!
What a sad sad state of
being.
What horrible and important
things?
Death? War? The growth of unwanted body
hair? Taxes?
...I'm not even sure what woops' position
on this is.
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
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Posted: 10-18-07 20:38pm
Death is a physical thing that is not
something related to your "will" (which is
something separate from your body in a
non-literal sense).
War is caused by humans. It is their will
to go to war. Following the rules of
someone else is entirely up to you. You
don't have to do as they say.
Body hair is again a physical thing and
not related to will.
Taxes are a human thing that you could
ignore if you wanted to. It's your choice.
Will humans impose punishments on you for
evading taxes? Yes, but it was still your
free will, your choice, to disobey.
Involving laws and rules removes the
esoteric meaning of free-will that I
thought this debate was getting at.
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Mikolas
Moderator
Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 597 Location: Buffalo University, Hands off! My trained killer kitten has its aim set upon you!
Thanks: 17
Thanked:1
Posted: 10-22-07 21:59pm
So I guess nobody here believes that they
don't have free will? Well that makes
sense right, most people naturally
wouldn't want the idea that anything and
everything they do is being controlled by
some being far beyond their capabilities
or level of comprehension. So I'm just
wondering, do you think we're all just
bias and aren't justified in believing
about anything that is external to our
knowledge, and that we only base such
beliefs on sense experience.
I don't know, I, like everybody else would
like to say I am in control of my actions
and have free will. But I can't say there
cannot be beings that (while are not
necessarily God or Godlike) can be
superior to us and could control our
freewill without us consciously knowing
about it. I.E. The Matrix, it was based
off of that. If a superior being was
specialized in deceiving, there is no way
we could know if we are being manipulated
right.
I guess one can argue that they do have
free will because they choose what they
think and could do anything they want
right now this moment such as smack
themselves or pick up a book. True, but we
can be deceived into believing such a
thing as well? We could be "programmed:
for instance, to "at 11:07, to refute
Mikos claim and then decide 15.3 seconds
later to agree after some consideration".
So, I have no clue, I can do my best to
believe that I have free will, but the
truth remains regardless of how I feel
right? Whether or not I can refuse to
believe I have free will, if I really
don't, what would change really?
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Birch
Moderator
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3963 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 129
Thanked:12
Posted: 10-22-07 22:24pm
Mikolas
wrote:
So I guess nobody here
believes that they don't have free will?
Well that makes sense right, most people
naturally wouldn't want the idea that
anything and everything they do is being
controlled by some being far beyond their
capabilities or level of comprehension. So
I'm just wondering, do you think we're all
just bias and aren't justified in
believing about anything that is external
to our knowledge, and that we only base
such beliefs on sense experience.
I don't know, I, like everybody else would
like to say I am in control of my actions
and have free will. But I can't say there
cannot be beings that (while are not
necessarily God or Godlike) can be
superior to us and could control our
freewill without us consciously knowing
about it. I.E. The Matrix, it was based
off of that. If a superior being was
specialized in deceiving, there is no way
we could know if we are being manipulated
right.
I guess one can argue that they do have
free will because they choose what they
think and could do anything they want
right now this moment such as smack
themselves or pick up a book. True, but we
can be deceived into believing such a
thing as well? We could be "programmed:
for instance, to "at 11:07, to refute
Mikos claim and then decide 15.3 seconds
later to agree after some consideration".
So, I have no clue, I can do my best to
believe that I have free will, but the
truth remains regardless of how I feel
right? Whether or not I can refuse to
believe I have free will, if I really
don't, what would change
really?
I think Lion79 and I don't think we have
complete free will.
I would say that while I don't believe a
higher power is in direct control, I would
say that societal standards do define our
lives to a certain point.
Why, I was just moaning about the
seemingly universal 'start time' at work
of 9am. Who made that ridiculous
decision?
