Should Mentally Unstable People Be Forced to Abort? Posted: 11-17-07 16:04pm
Just something that crossed my mind. I (as
well as some of you, I'm sure) have read
many news stories about kids who were
abused or killed because their mothers had
some sort of mental illness, like severe
depression, schizophrenia, and - while
these are not entirely mental - drug
addictions that interfered with their
ability to be decent parents.
My question is this: Should people who are
known to be mentally unstable be allowed
to have children? If a person already has
a diagnosis for something like bipolar
disorder, for example, should they be
required by law to abort all pregnancies
OR get sterilized? And by 'mentally
unstable', I don't mean people who
obsessively bite their nails or who need
to wash their hands 25 times in a
30-minute time span to feel clean. I mean
the people who have conditions that make
them capable of inflicting harm on
others.
I know a lot of people like to believe
that, once the baby arrives, everything
will fall perfectly into place and the
mother and father will be wonderful and
loving. And yet...we see news stories
about crazy women microwaving their
babies, or letting their kids starve to
death because Mommy needed money for her
drug fixes. CPS is usually too busy
investigating false reports to deal with
real abuse cases and, by the time they do,
the kid is already dead or severely and
irreversibly abused.
I do not usually advocate the law stepping
in and telling people what kids of bodily
choices they can make...but how is it
humane to allow someone who is nuts to be
in charge of another life?
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Tylanas
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Posted: 11-17-07 16:05pm
They should not be forced to abort, but
they should be forced to give the child up
for adoption: This is easy enough to do
since proving them an unfit mother is
extremely easy if they are that unstable.
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msrosie
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Posted: 11-17-07 17:24pm
I agree with Eiri that they should have
the child taken from them if they are
unfit to parent. Someone having bi-polar,
for instance, is not necessarily going to
be a bad parent - many people with this
condition have it under control with
medication.
I do think that drug addicts should have
their children removed until they are
clean for a certain period of time, and by
drug addicts, I mean hard core drugs, not
stuff like tobacco, which technically is a
drug.
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Birch
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Posted: 11-17-07 18:53pm
No. No one should be forced to abort,
parent, or adopt because of what 'might'
happen.
This is not personal, just an example,
Cambion, but it is known that you have a
very strong dislike for children. Do you
think that you should be barred from all
contact with kids b/c you have may have a
predisposition to harm one? Especially a
'waif' screaming in a cart going down the
aisles of the store?
I work with mentally ill individuals, and
know many who are great parents.
Everyone is capable of inflicting harm
upon another.
I think this kind of sentiment perpetuates
the myth that all mentally ill individuals
are inherently dangerous.
It is not easy to predict who will
mistreat their children. Some of the
stories you hear are about women who had
no history of a mental illness; they just
'snapped' one day.
Cambion
wrote:
CPS is usually too busy
investigating false reports to deal with
real abuse cases and, by the time they do,
the kid is already dead or severely and
irreversibly
abused.
Care to post a link?
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Cambion
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Posted: 11-18-07 02:21am
Quote:
They should not
be forced to abort, but they should be
forced to give the child up for adoption:
This is easy enough to do since proving
them an unfit mother is extremely easy if
they are that unstable.
It's always easy to stick a kid in the
system, but then that's one more kid
growing up without a family, and one more
kid rotting in an orphanage or getting
passed around between families like a
peace pipe. Like there aren't enough kids
in the system, so let's put the babies of
cokeheads and retards in there too because
they were allowed to give birth. Maybe not
forced abortion for this crowd, but at
least some kind of court-ordered
sterilization (like an IUD - something
temporary in the event they get clean/get
the necessary medication). I know people
who will get their kids taken away by
default for whatever reasons, like
outstanding crimes, inability to afford
them and having a record with CPS. And
they just keep giving birth, as if saying,
"You can take my kids, but you can't stop
me from making them - nyah nyah nyah!" I
think this kind of behavior should be
halted.
Quote:
This is not
personal, just an example, Cambion, but it
is known that you have a very strong
dislike for children. Do you think that
you should be barred from all contact with
kids b/c you have may have a
predisposition to harm one? Especially a
'waif' screaming in a cart going down the
aisles of the store?
I wouldn't mind not seeing kids anymore -
I hate the little no namers. I would never
harm someone else's mistake, though
(although I've been tempted to slap a
clueless mother's screaming kid across the
head on a few occasions - if the parent
isn't going to parent the kid, I wonder if
I could do it for her). But God's pweshus
widdle miracles are a sight I could live
without ever seeing again.
Those are all stories dealing with
children wrongfully taken from their
families by good old
CPS.
I was more interested in a link regarding
this statement: "CPS is usually too busy
investigating false reports to deal with
real abuse cases and, by the time they do,
the kid is already dead or severely and
irreversibly abused."
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Tylanas
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Posted: 11-18-07 11:11am
I simply believe that killing should not
be used to "control" mentally unstable
people from having children. I do not like
how China uses it and I would never
approve of it being used in the USA. Don't
you think it's a far smarter idea to
castrate them? Not that we can do any of
that; but to be 100% honest forced
sterilization is thousands of times better
than forced abortion.
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Cambion
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Posted: 11-18-07 11:30am
Quote:
I was more
interested in a link regarding this
statement: "CPS is usually too busy
investigating false reports to deal with
real abuse cases and, by the time they do,
the kid is already dead or severely and
irreversibly abused."
Well if you put the pieces together, you
will find they provide the information you
want. Consider the stories in the link I
posted - a whole bunch of families who
were investigated and invaded by CPS
because of false reports. Also consider
all the stories in the news of children
being neglected or abused, sometimes to
death. There are people who hate their
neighbors who will call CPS for no reason
other than to cause trouble, and if CPS
wasn't occupied investigating the fake
cases, maybe kids who are actually in
danger would get help more often.
Quote:
Don't you think
it's a far smarter idea to castrate
them?
That's why I also said this:
Quote:
Maybe not forced
abortion for this crowd, but at least some
kind of court-ordered sterilization (like
an IUD - something temporary in the event
they get clean/get the necessary
medication).
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Rodge
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Posted: 11-18-07 11:39am
People with mental disorders are still
people, and you can abuse a child without
ever having something medically wrong with
you.
Forcing someone to abort goes against
everything pro-choice people argue for.
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Birch
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Posted: 11-18-07 13:28pm
Cambion
wrote:
Quote:
I was more
interested in a link regarding this
statement: "CPS is usually too busy
investigating false reports to deal with
real abuse cases and, by the time they do,
the kid is already dead or severely and
irreversibly abused."
Well if you put the pieces together, you
will find they provide the information you
want. Consider the stories in the link I
posted - a whole bunch of families who
were investigated and invaded by CPS
because of false reports. Also consider
all the stories in the news of children
being neglected or abused, sometimes to
death. There are people who hate their
neighbors who will call CPS for no reason
other than to cause trouble, and if CPS
wasn't occupied investigating the fake
cases, maybe kids who are actually in
danger would get help more often.
Quote:
Don't you think
it's a far smarter idea to castrate
them?
That's why I also said this:
Quote:
Maybe not forced
abortion for this crowd, but at least some
kind of court-ordered sterilization (like
an IUD - something temporary in the event
they get clean/get the necessary
medication).
<
span class="postbody">
You mean, if I make assumptions I can work
it out that CPS workers are too busy
investigating reports of false abuse than
to deal with real abuse cases and, by the
time they do, the kid is already dead or
severely and irreversibly abused.
I'm not trying to
give you a hard time, but this seemed like
a big generalization based on some
incidental anecdotes and I know you are a
big proponet of logic so I was interested
in a little more substance.
Anyways...
Forcing medical treatment on anyone
is against the law (with some exceptions
that require extensive judicial
interaction) and should continue to be so.
The concept that mentally ill individuals
should be restrained from making choices
about their life further perpetuates the
myth that they are inherently dangerous,
and harkens back to the period of time
before deinstitutionalization.
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Rodge
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Posted: 11-19-07 07:01am
I'm sure Cambion loves you too.
Semi-related story- Our ice-cream man
married a woman who was brain-damaged as a
teenager and because of this has the
maturity and intelligence of an
8-year-old. They have had four children
together (possibly more by now), and every
one of them has been taken into care.
Despite this, they are continuing to have
kids, presumably in the hope that Social
Services will change their minds about
this one.
Oh, by the way, she's in her late twenties
and the last time I saw him he was about
50. Their relationship creeps me out.
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Becky
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Posted: 11-19-07 07:06am
Haha aw my post is being reviewed oh well
yep Cambion sure loves me too- just ask
her
But anyway I think that is terrible about
your ice cream man.
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Jincks013
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Posted: 11-19-07 08:07am
we tried that once in the U.S.. the
Eugenics program of the early 20th
centuary but I will restate my PC position
on reproductive choice: It is each
individual woman's choice as to whether
she wants to gestate a pregnancy or not.
I can no more support enforced abortion
then I can enforced gestation.
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Cambion
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Posted: 11-19-07 12:03pm
Quote:
The concept that
mentally ill individuals should be
restrained from making choices about their
life further perpetuates the myth that
they are inherently dangerous, and harkens
back to the period of time before
deinstitutionalization.
But where does making a choice for your
life stop and making a choice for another
life begin? I don't want insane people to
have all matter of choice removed from
them, but I just don't think they should
be put in charge of another life if they
are extremely unstable. But do you deny
that there are dangerous mentally ill
people out there?
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Birch
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Posted: 11-19-07 21:21pm
Cambion
wrote:
But where does making a choice for your
life stop and making a choice for another
life begin?
The same places it does for people without
a mental illness.
Cambion
wrote:
I don't want insane people to have all
matter of choice removed from them, but I
just don't think they should be put in
charge of another life if they are
extremely unstable. But do you deny that
there are dangerous mentally ill people
out there?
"Extremely unstable" was not your
qualifier originally, only "people who
have conditions that make them capable of
inflicting harm on others" which could be
anyone, or someone w/
bipolar d/o and that does not mean they
are automatically going to harm someone.
I felt that this example of someone w/
bipolar d/o being inherently harmful was
indicative of an ignorance surrounding
mental illnesses.
While there are individuals diagnosed with
mental illness who are dangerous, I think
the number would be much lower than you'd
think. When I worked in a psych hospital,
it was a complete revelation for me to
interact with the pleasantly psychotic
people who wouldn't hurt a fly.
Those are all stories dealing with
children wrongfully taken from their
families by good old
CPS.
I was more interested in a link regarding
this statement: "CPS is usually too busy
investigating false reports to deal with
real abuse cases and, by the time they do,
the kid is already dead or severely and
irreversibly
abused."
CPS and other agencies like them are under
staffed, and the staff they do have are
uneducated morons, and have no business
having the ability to yank a child from
his/her parents.
I know a family that had a false report
made about them. The fool worker comes
out to their mansion to check up on a
"neglect" report. She walks in and asks
if the child has a bedroom. The mother
looks at her with astonishment. The child
is an only child, and they have at least 5
bedrooms in their home 12 or more rooms
total (not including bathrooms, of which
they have I think 4) The mother asked the
worker if she was kidding or not. The
reply was , something like, "Oh these are
the standard questions, blah blah blah.."
Luckily that was the last that family
heard of the idiots.
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Verizon-y
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Posted: 11-23-07 09:58am
Here's a population of people that
shouldn't be allowed to have children:
Teens under 16. There are children in
this age group getting pregnant ON
PURPOSE. They immediately go on welfare
and WIC and food stamps and every other
thing available. It is sick.
Welfare started originally as a safety net
for WIDOWS. I have no problem with people
going on welfare at certain times in their
lives, that's what it's there for. But to
have a child on purpose and PLANNING on
using the government for financial support
is despicable.
Those are all stories dealing with
children wrongfully taken from their
families by good old
CPS.
I was more interested in a link regarding
this statement: "CPS is usually too busy
investigating false reports to deal with
real abuse cases and, by the time they do,
the kid is already dead or severely and
irreversibly
abused."
CPS and other agencies like them are under
staffed, and the staff they do have are
uneducated morons, and have no business
having the ability to yank a child from
his/her parents.
I know a family that had a false report
made about them. The fool worker comes
out to their mansion to check up on a
"neglect" report. She walks in and asks
if the child has a bedroom. The mother
looks at her with astonishment. The child
is an only child, and they have at least 5
bedrooms in their home 12 or more rooms
total (not including bathrooms, of which
they have I think 4) The mother asked the
worker if she was kidding or not. The
reply was , something like, "Oh these are
the standard questions, blah blah blah.."
Luckily that was the last that family
heard of the
idiots.
Well, I guess that personal anecdote
proves Cambion's claim.
While I know that CPS agencies are
understaffed, I wouldn't go as far to say
that all the workers are uneducated
morons. I would be asking, who are the
people making these false reports? And
CPS is obligated to follow up on every
report. I don't think you'd want it any
other way.
Your example is very interesting. I think
the sign of a good CPS worker is not
assuming that just because a family lives
in a big house a child cannot be
mistreated. Even rich people abuse their
kids.
I'm sure you know that; I'm just saying
that in case anyone carries this false
belief.
futureshock
wrote:
Here's a population of
people that shouldn't be allowed to have
children:
Teens under 16. There are children in
this age group getting pregnant ON
PURPOSE. They immediately go on welfare
and WIC and food stamps and every other
thing available. It is sick.
Welfare started originally as a safety net
for WIDOWS. I have no problem with people
going on welfare at certain times in their
lives, that's what it's there for. But to
have a child on purpose and PLANNING on
using the government for financial support
is
despicable.
Yes, I agree. I think that we have to get
down to the reasons why these kids are
having kids at such a young age to fix the
process. It makes me sad.
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Emma21
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Nov 2007 Posts: 183
Posted: 11-23-07 13:40pm
I agree that no one should be forced to
abort and adoption is the way to go.
These young kids from what I understand
don't have a clue what it takes to care
for another human being . They think it's
a like taking care of thier cabbage patch
kid and when their fed up they can toss it
aside. Once the reality sets in they see
they need help and the goverment is always
there with some sort of plan or
assistance.
Some do it to keep a relationship going,
some do it to have something to call their
own and i also heard one girl say she
wants a baby so that she can be loved
unconditionally by her child.
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Tylanas
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Posted: 11-23-07 13:48pm
I do not agree that adoption is the way to
go because no one should be forced to give
birth. They should be given the choice:
Abort or adopt.
If the young teen (since that's the
current subject) could prove themselves
worthy of being a parent then they should
be able to keep the child if they choose
to do so.
