Is this possible? Is it feasible for a
practicing theist (let's say a Christian,
to be comfortable), who believes with all
his/her heart and soul in the Holy Bible,
who attends church and engages in deep
prayer every day, to be pro-choice? When I
say pro-choice, I mean those who support a
woman's choice to abort. That person, on
par with the Scriptures, would more than
likely be against abortion for
him/herself, although would still
technically fall into the category of
pro-choice because s/he supports the choice of all women to
end a pregnancy, too.
I have often wondered how religious
politicians marry their faith with the
laws they set in a political party. In
fact, I think it's impossible. Tony Blair
is soon to be baptised a Catholic and has
admitted he was deeply religious during
his time as leader and carried the Bible
around everywhere. How on Earth can he
truly mean this when he voted against
laws to recuce the time limit for abortion
and is indirectly responsible for the
deaths of thousands of people. How can he
support a particular system of Government
when he is supposed to be voting for God's
theoretical 'Government'? It's absolutely
ridiculous.
However, avoiding going off on a tangent,
can one be pro-choice (and obviously that
personal choice being life) for others,
with this engaging with the Bible? Whereas
the Bible prohibits its believers to have
an abortion, does it not say anything
regarding accepting other people to act
out their desired beliefs? The choice to be unrighteous
etc.?
Let's discuss, my chummie chums.
Kypros.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Re: Religious And Pro-choice Posted: 12-10-07 12:50pm
Kypros
wrote:
Is this possible?
Absolutely. In fact, being prochoice
seems to reach to religious fervor in
some. I imagine that there are as many
prochoicers belonging to the various
religions in this country as there are
prolifers.
Kypros
wrote:
Whereas the Bible prohibits its believers
to have an abortion, does it not say
anything regarding accepting other people
to act out their desired beliefs?
.
The word abortion isn't found in the
Judeo-Christian scriptures, as far as I
know. One must interpret such things as
"Thou shalt not kill" in order to apply it
to abortion.
As far as advocating for particular laws,
I don't think you'll find anything for or
against that in the scriptures.
The word abortion isn't
found in the Judeo-Christian scriptures,
as far as I know. One must interpret such
things as "Thou shalt not kill" in order
to apply it to
abortion.
Neither is the word monotheism but we know by
the languages of the Bible that this is
what is intended to be conveyed. It's
clear that the Bible condemns abortion, we
are clear on that matter. Obviously, the
Scriptures do not say whether we must be
against that specific law, however the
Bible does say that we must obey the laws
of the nation. I am wondering if there is
something more particular, something along
the lines of "I disagree with what you're
doing but I support you're right to do
it". Opinions, especially moral ones, can
be shaped based on the Scriptures, so
they're must be something more
categorical. If people can choose to be
unrighteous, we should love them
nonetheless, have the right to refuse
God's Word and we must respect that,
surely they can be pro-choice (in the
sense that they themselves would never
abort (which is, of course, itself a
choice), yet respect the choice of others
to)? I'm not stating this as a fact, but
I'm very, very confident. It seems the
only justifications for being pro-life
(this differs from pro-choice since the
pro-lifer doesn't think that abortion
should be a choice for anybody) are
science and philosophy.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-10-07 13:49pm
Kypros
wrote:
Neither is the word monotheism but we know by
the languages of the Bible that this is
what is intended to be conveyed. It's
clear that the Bible condemns abortion, we
are clear on that matter.
Monotheism can be found in the scriptures
as a definition of the word itself. The
command not to have "any other gods"
clearly defines that word. Abortion, on
the other hand, is not so clearly defined.
Kypros
wrote:
I am wondering if there is
something more particular, something along
the lines of "I disagree with what you're
doing but I support you're right to do
it".
No, I think not. The vast majority of
scriptural passages that i'm familiar with
take the moral, not the legal view of
things. As such they do not directly
relate to legal rights to "do wrong".
Kypros
wrote:
It seems the only
justifications for being pro-life (this
differs from pro-choice since the
pro-lifer doesn't think that abortion
should be a choice for anybody) are
science and
philosophy.
I think you have your labels reversed, but
I think I understand what you're trying to
say. I think the basic difference between
the two opposite sides of this debate is
purely one of values. Prolifers value the
life of the innocent unborn baby,
prochoicers do not (or value it so lowly
as to make it worth less than the "right
to kill to maintain your lifestyle").
So at it's essence, this debate is not
about science or philosophy, it's about
personal values. And personal values are
subjective, they are simply matters of
opinion.
And it is the opinion of prolifers that
the unborn human ought not to be legally
discriminated against, with respect to
criminal laws.
|
msrosie
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 360 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Religious And Pro-choice Posted: 12-10-07 15:45pm
Kypros
wrote:
Is this possible?
Absolutely. When I had my abortion, I was
a Christian and my minister knew and had
no problem with it. His secretary, who was
also a personal friend, drove me to and
from the hospital.
Quote:
Whereas the Bible
prohibits its believers to have an
abortion, does it not say anything
regarding accepting other people to act
out their desired beliefs? The choice to be unrighteous
etc.?
There is nowhere in the bible that
prohibits abortion. Au contraire, there is
a part where god instructs a man who
suspects his wife of cheating to take her
to the priest and have the priest give her
a drink of a potion that will cause her to
miscarry if she is pregnant and has been
with another man.
|
meblonde01
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2131 Location: ,
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Re: Religious And Pro-choice Posted: 12-10-07 15:55pm
msrosie
wrote:
Kypros
wrote:
Is this possible?
Absolutely. When I had my abortion, I was
a Christian and my minister knew and had
no problem with it. His secretary, who was
also a personal friend, drove me to and
from the hospital.
Quote:
Whereas the Bible
prohibits its believers to have an
abortion, does it not say anything
regarding accepting other people to act
out their desired beliefs? The choice to be unrighteous
etc.?
There is nowhere in the bible that
prohibits abortion. Au contraire, there is
a part where god instructs a man who
suspects his wife of cheating to take her
to the priest and have the priest give her
a drink of a potion that will cause her to
miscarry if she is pregnant and has been
with another
man.
can you tell me where that is in the bible
please?
|
oopoopoop
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Posted: 12-11-07 14:28pm
Religion is your personal belief. Some are
arrogant enough to think that their own
personal beliefs should be imposed on
others. If your religion prohibits
abortion, then you should not have one. If
I do not follow your religion, then what I
do should be none of your concern. Someone
who is religious and intelligent would be
pro-choice.
|
Jincks013
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Posted: 12-12-07 07:59am
You folks who doubt religion is pro choice
should read :
A FAITHFUL PRO-LIFE WITNESS IN
A"PRO-CHOICE"DENOMINATION
By Rev. Paul T. Stallsworth
While historic Christianity has always
been clear about children being gifts from
God and abortion being a sinful rejection
of the divinely given little ones, there
are certain denominations based in the
United States that, in recent decades,
claim to be prayerfully pro-choice. The
Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran
Church in America, the Presby-terian
Church (USA), the United Methodist Church,
the United Church of Christ, and a few
others make up this quite small fraternity
of pro-choice denominations on the huge
campus of world Christianity.
These particular denominations were once
acknowledged as the culture-forming,
culture-transforming, religious
establishment of American society. They
proudly wore the tag "mainline Protest-
antism." When the leaders of the
Protestant mainline spoke, America
listened. Now, humbled by decades of
membership decline and having fallen off
the throne of the American religious
establishment, mainline Protestantism has
become "oldline Protestantism."
To be blunt about it, oldline
Protestantism in general and the United
Methodist Church of which I am a pastor in
particular are, on life and abortion,
solidly pro-choice. But what, exactly,
does that mean? In the case of United
Methodism (and probably other
denominations), being denominationally
pro-choice means at least three things.
First, being pro-choice means that United
Methodism maintains, in its official
teaching (that is, in its Book of
Discipline), a pro-choice position.
Paragraph 65J of the Discipline attempts
the impossible: appealing to all United
Methodists, 65J tries to advance both
pro-life claims and pro-choice claims at
the same time. Not surprisingly, the
result is inconsistent, confusing church
teaching that is, in reality, pro-choice.
Second, being pro-choice means that United
Methodism associates with the Religious
Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC),
the Washington, D.C.-based lobby that
baptizes abortion-on-demand politics with
allegedly religious language and
rationale. Occasionally, because of this
association, official United
Methodism--that is, a few of its important
denominational boards and several of its
most visible leaders--winds up supporting
RCRC lobbying efforts, including one that
helped protect partial- birth abortion
from legislative restriction.
And third, being pro-choice means that
United Methodism and its elite leaders
have made their peace with abortion on
demand in American society. Apparently,
they have agreed among themselves not to
bring up abortion in their preaching and
in their social action. They have agreed
that choice is okay--perhaps tragic, but
still okay--and that anyone who speaks in
defense of the unborn child and mother is
downright impolite and intolerant. In this
way, the pro-choice sect encourages
silence on abortion.
Some gods/goddesses actually respect
women. You might want to consider that
when you're brooding over the nature of
prochoice spirituality. Not all deities
or beliefs base women's value on
reproduction.
|
nightangel73
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Re: Religious And Pro-choice Posted: 12-12-07 22:05pm
msrosie
wrote:
Absolutely. When I had my abortion, I was
a Christian and my minister knew and had
no problem with it. His secretary, who was
also a personal friend, drove me to and
from the hospital.
This is where we can tell that protestant
denominations don't hold the whole Thruth
like the holy catholic church does.
|
Jincks013
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 1174 Location: ,
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Posted: 12-12-07 22:56pm
*Annoyed* What is this "my version of
worship is better then yours" come in?
There isn't One True Way. It doesn't
exist. If there ever is it will be because
all of humanity have become borg..
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-13-07 16:29pm
poopoopoo
wrote:
Religion is your personal
belief. Some are arrogant enough to think
that their own personal beliefs should be
imposed on others.
True. Like the personal belief that one
should not kill their neighbor in cold
blood for selfish reasons. People decided
a long time ago to "impose" that belief on
all of society. And they didn't stop
there, they went after robbery,
kidnapping, assault and battery, etc., all
kinds of stuff.
|
msrosie
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Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 360 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Religious And Pro-choice Posted: 12-13-07 17:58pm
meblonde01
wrote:
can you tell me where that is in the bible
please?
Numbers 5.
|
msrosie
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 360 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Religious And Pro-choice Posted: 12-13-07 17:59pm
nightangel73
wrote:
This is where we can tell that protestant
denominations don't hold the whole Thruth
like the holy catholic church
does.
I wouldn't be so smug, if I were you. Your
misogynist catholic denomination is just
as much a crock as any other denomination
or religion.
|
tigresacanela24
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 5261 Location: Treat your children well, eventually they'll choose your nursing home.
Re: Religious And Pro-choice Posted: 12-13-07 18:39pm
msrosie
wrote:
Kypros
wrote:
Is this possible?
Absolutely. When I had my abortion, I was
a Christian and my minister knew and had
no problem with it. His secretary, who was
also a personal friend, drove me to and
from the hospital.
Quote:
Whereas the Bible
prohibits its believers to have an
abortion, does it not say anything
regarding accepting other people to act
out their desired beliefs? The choice to be unrighteous
etc.?
There is nowhere in the bible that
prohibits abortion. Au contraire, there is
a part where god instructs a man who
suspects his wife of cheating to take her
to the priest and have the priest give her
a drink of a potion that will cause her to
miscarry if she is pregnant and has been
with another
man.
I was just about to post something
similar... give me a minute to find my
Bible.
|
tigresacanela24
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Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 5261 Location: Treat your children well, eventually they'll choose your nursing home.
Posted: 12-13-07 19:09pm
This is one of the reasons why I believe
that abortion is not considered homicide
in the eyes of God (just one, not all but
it seemed rather eye opening to me at the
time).
"And if men struggle and strike a woman
with child so that she has a miscarriage,
yet there is no further injury, he shall
be fined as the woman's husband may demand
of him, and he shall pay as the judges
decide. But if there is any further
injury, then you shall appoint as a
penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth
for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for
bruise."
Exodus 21:22-25
Notice that if the fetus is killed, the
punishment is a fine. But if anything
further happens, like the woman is
seriously injured or killed there is a
more serious punishment involved. Also
check out Leviticus chapter 27. Do you
see the value system placed on children?
do you also see that children younger than
1 month old have no value assigned to
them? This is the value system that the
Bible says that God himself set. Or what
about the book of Genesis? I distinctly
remember a pregnant woman being condemned
to burn somewhere in there. If the fetus
was a "real, live human being" why
wouldn't they wait until it was born to
turn her crispy? Someone find that
passage for me? I can't find it for the
life of me right now... Ah, here we go.
It was Judah and Tamar. She didn't end up
being burnt but the point is that she was
condemned to burn fetus and all and no one
had a problem with the idea.
Re: Religious And Pro-choice Posted: 12-14-07 07:06am
nightangel73
wrote:
msrosie
wrote:
Absolutely. When I had my abortion, I was
a Christian and my minister knew and had
no problem with it. His secretary, who was
also a personal friend, drove me to and
from the hospital.
This is where we can tell that protestant
denominations don't hold the whole Thruth
like the holy catholic church
does.
Sorry, but I feel compelled to reply.
Catholicism preaches erroneously that the
Madonna was a perpetual virgin, when in
fact she went on to have more children
with her husband, Joseph. Mainstream
Christians celebrate Christmas and
birthdays, yet these are not found in the
Bible and originate in Paganism (there
are, actually, two birthdays celebrated in
the Bible but they are not viewed
positively, if you read the Holy Book).
Unfortunately, nobody has been able to
compile a full binding of the Scriptures,
which have been found at various times
over the years and translations are
scrambled together. Nobody knows the
truth, especially not the paedophile-phile
Nazi Pope.
Anyway, back on topic, the Bible expresses
profusely that life is a wonderful,
ineffably divine gift that must not be
taken. I cannot see how abortion would be
permitted but not euthanasia, for example.
Just like the word monotheism, abortion
does not actually appear in the Scriptures
although its definition is described and
as sinful and that. I find it highly
hypocritical for a Christian to have an
abortion, although s/he could be
pro-choice in the sense that s/he feels it
should be legal for other women (secular,
most likely) to have one, just as they
have the right not to be under theocratic
control and forced into believing in God.
I'm pretty sure that this stance can be
engaged by Christians. As I understand,
Christians must "respect the laws of the
nation as long as they don't interfere
with God's laws". But for Chistians
themselves to actually have a termination?
I'd like to see the biblical evidence for
this.
Kypros.
|
tigresacanela24
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Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 5261 Location: Treat your children well, eventually they'll choose your nursing home.
Posted: 12-14-07 08:57am
So you don't think the passages that I
posted show the groundwork for not viewing
an abortion as homicide?
|
tigresacanela24
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 5261 Location: Treat your children well, eventually they'll choose your nursing home.
No, sorry, I don't, purely because there
are much more conflicting and definitive
verses that condemn such an act. Your
verses also show that it is not favourably
looked upon.
