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Georgia59

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Posted: 12-19-07 15:21pm


But philo- there is proof that it is biological. People with schizophrenia have different brains than people who don't have schizophrenia. There is now way that some set of ethics could have caused that.

Stan

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Posted: 12-19-07 16:24pm


Unfortunately, you're wrong, oftentimes, MRIs and investigations of the brain reveal nothing different. Stuff like altered dopamine levels is thought now to be merely a symptom of it, NOT a cause. No one has figured it out yet. Philo, explain the low blood sugar to me (hypoglycemia). What did you have to do? How long did it last? What did you eat? Did it just disappear or have you perhaps become so sickened by it that it's melded into what you have now? Just asking that because I know of a guy who was institutionalized for 10 years of his life as schizophrenic, and then found out he had hypoglycemia, sued and won. He eventually ended up with pancretitis, unfortunately, but he's still living. If I can, I may be able to find his email for you if you'd be interested in talking to him.

Georgia59

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Posted: 12-19-07 18:53pm


Stan- where do you get that information? I agree that no one has figured out the cause. I was a little too quick to jump to that statement. yet, not only dopamine levels, but what about ventricle size, twin studies? Surely the causes are varied, but one (and it seems, a dominating one) is certainly biological.

Stan

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Posted: 12-19-07 20:39pm


From medical textbooks. You can find most of this stuff on the internet if you really want to read it, but make sure it's from a reputable source. Ventricle size exists in some cases, yes, but unfortunately not all cases, and it seems, again, to sometimes be more of a symptom than a cause. Twin studies are not consistent either. There have been some cases where one twin is schizophrenic and one is not, and I know of a picture you can probably find if you look showing two schizophrenic twin's and how one has enlarged ventricles and one does not. Sure, there is some sort of biological cause, otherwise it wouldn't be a disease. But what is it? No one has a clue, and it's been about three hundred years since they officially started research on it.

Georgia59

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Posted: 12-19-07 22:45pm


Well, ok. I still believe that the cause is strictly biological. The point I am trying to make is, schizophrenia is not brought on by a moral failing. I'm sure we can agree on that.

Stan

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Posted: 12-19-07 23:31pm


Actually, no, there are plenty of stories where someone reaches what could best be called a logical paradox and is plagued by terrible thoughts. Depression, for example, can actually turn into psychosis in some cases if left untreated. The classic novel Anna Karenina has this sort of thing in it, Anna is left at the end stuck between two impossible possibilities, so she kills herself. The mind is a poweful thing at times, especially when it sees no way out, from itself.

Georgia59

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Posted: 12-20-07 13:19pm


There are biological causes for depression also. I know affective disorders can have psychotic components. i PM'd you.

Stan

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Posted: 12-20-07 19:27pm


I was merely pointing out the fact that no one knows exactly what causes schizophrenia, but like any other disease, sure, there is a biological component. Could it be triggered perhaps by thinking patterns, perhaps some sort of biological problem being turned on by some sort of problem? Sure. Problem is, no one knows for sure because, again, we don't know what causes it. And I'm not suggesting anyone get off their medication. I'm saying that it's best to always be absolutely certain that one's illness does not have some sort of curable cause, because with something like this, that relies on medicines that simply block symptoms and actually do a heck of a lot of damage to the body, it's quite important. In my case, I was actually going through delusions at one point similar to schizophrenia and was almost diagnosed as bipolar. What did I figure out? Something that had to do with eating got me better and by going on a low carbohydrate diet, and NO medication whatsoever, I was able to overcome whatever is going on. Doctors are still trying to figure it out, because I'm unable to handle breads and simliar products or any simple sugar, but the fact is that my biological cause was not one that was entirely in my brain, it was somewhere else in my body that caused things to happen in my brain. That's what I'm trying to get across. I worked in mental health for awhile, and not just with schizophrenics, and I saw too many people ruined by a system that's quick to medicate and treat symptoms and not find the root cause. Because psychology is essentially a farce (in the sense that you can never truly know what anyone is thinking, in addition to the fact that we don't actually understand what causes some of these conditions), it's quite dangerous to just say okay, I have this or that and take pills without fulling investigating the matter. Patients have the right to demand further tests to see what's happening, they're not required by law to do anything and in fact shizophrenics, unless court ordered, are NOT required to do anything, they can stop taking their medicine if they want. That's mental health law. Do I condone that? No, but I do condone taking every possible option before settling on ANY diagnosis, be it schizophrenia, diabetes, depression, hypertriglyceridemia or whatever. Patients need to know that they can take the power to figure their problem out, because Western medicine will often NOT do that for them.

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Posted: 12-20-07 23:42pm


If you read "The Origins and History of Consciousness" by Erich Neumann, a famous Jungian, you will see how moral values (such as love) play into the development of consciousness and what I called moral failing can hinder it or alter its course, throwing you into sickness. But also, mind you, I didn't say that this failing is the only cause of my situation. I outlined a comlex situation with at least 3 components, which should not be simplified. One of them is biological. (I'm certain that my brain is altered becasue of the episode.) But if schizophrenia is totally biological, then I don't have schizophrenia. I differ from schizophrenics in major ways anyway, and I don't identify with this sickness so much anymore. Stan - the hypoglycemia was severe at times, but I don't really see a connection with what happened. When it came I would eat bread and cheese most often. I do notice, like you , that bread is not the best food for me though. You might laugh, but it gets me feeling aggressive. Seriously. I still eat a lot of it since I hardly cook and a sandwich requires little effort. I've been trying to change that. What do you eat?

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Posted: 12-21-07 19:17pm


Well, I'm glad you got it figured out for yourself. I'm vegetarian on top of it, so that limits my choice of foods. It would be easier to be carnivorous, but I just can't touch meat, it really grosses me out, no offence of course. Once I worked in a pizza parlour and I got so sick just touching meat through a plastic glove I don't want to describe it. As to Jung, I notice that that kind of thought is dismissed today, and the tendency is toward medication. My condition is a mystery, but people would rather treat it as a physical illness than a deep psychological one, and they offer no explanation why. Maybe it has to do with the money involved in pharmacology and the power structures implicit in the current world view. I have to say that the book I mentioned described EXACTLY what happened before my episode and during it (in the chapter about ("the rise of the hero"). Basically, I was ready to move on to another stage of my life in terms of consciousness, but I was defeated by the negative forces of interiorized parental figures, esp. the Father.

irChris777

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Philo This Is How You Win. I've Been Through It. Posted: 12-21-07 19:20pm


hi Philo, first of all i want you to know that i know how you feel. now i know you might hear that alot from people that really dont know at all (because i have)... but i do. i am 24 and was diagnosed with paranoid schizo at age 22, ill post my experience on here on a new topic so you can read about it. I'm impressed with mod stan's knowledge on schizophrenia. it is more of a label for people who experience certain symptoms then it is an actual and factual clear and understood diagnoses with a known cause. there is no "typical" case of schizo. and despite people acting like they know what they are talking about in order to feed the mental health industry cash cow no one knows anything other then we give these group of people some pills that pretty much affect dopamine in the brain and 60-70% (a GREATLY inflated statistic im sure that i read somewhere) "experience decreased symptoms" or w/e. the mod is aware that it is not proven to be brain condition even though it may have affects on the brain . (and defiantely does) grats to him on that. Philo i love you and want you to know that there is hope for you. i went through demonically induced HELL at the hands of the devil the past two years and gained victory through using the Word of God to defeat him and have been relatively ok other then some repetitive thoughts and rare nightmares (where a demon is trying to possess me). I call on the name of Jesus and boom i wake up or it leaves my body and stops affecting me. you are no fool to realize that there is a EVIL and INTENTIONAL and conscious force behind what is happening to you. this is not a result of your freudian subconscious playing tricks on you. Ill be starting college again in jan and ive taken psych 101 and adolescent psych. Its a bunch of theories with no solutions and questions with no answers except for a few "well we think this may explain such and such explanations" from some guy who had a perverted and sinful sexual infatuation with his mother and irrational fear of losing his private parts that he needed to make some biological excuse for. the only thing i gathered that anyone was sure of is that if you ring a bell and give a dog some food enough times- soon enough he will salivate when the bell rings. well congratz to the genius that figured that out it mustve taken alot of effort and deep thought to figure that one out. anyways.. whether or not it is coming from your brain or some unseen spiritual realm is a non-issue the source is still Ha'Satan and his fallen angels. the reason that they or it constantly accuses you for things that you've done wrong (some were morally wrong and some are ridicolus) is becasue that's what they do. they accuse and slander. the greek word "diablos" where diabolical comes from is in english "accuser, slanderer." if you want to defeat your enemy like i did (or God did for me) a good way to start would be to go to the bible the source of all truth and find out about your enemy. do not rely on mythological "hoo-hah" and man's opinon's read what the bible says. He is an accuser/slanderer, a liar- the father of lies- there is no truth in him. and a murderer from the very beginning. as stated by Jesus. The devils that are accusing you will be thrown into the lake of fire as prophesied in revelation for all eternity and punished for every word that they speak against you. to protect you from their slander you quote the word of God. ex... you did this or that!!! you bleep bleep were gonna bleep you... you responding "There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" "there is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins" "the word of God says that you will be thrown into the lake of fire and you lie and accuse and everything you do is sin and go against God" "and God is not a man that he should lie nor a son of man that he should change his mind" boom ill give you a verse for everthing they say to you i garuantee you they shutup if you turn you rlife over to the Lord Jesus Christ and stand on His Word against them. you mus cut off all ties with the occult (that pagan Buddhism crap and all interest fascination with the occult) and turn it over to God. add me on aim irchris777. God beats up the devil thats what he does this is not like hugging a tree or chanting a mantra to make it go away- it works. At first it will get worse then eventually he'll leave you alone once you persevere. add me on aim well talk i love you and am praying for your protection.

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Posted: 12-21-07 19:40pm


Thank you for your support and the prayers irChris777, but I have somewhat different views. The kind of mentality that believes in God also produces the Devil. It is the fault of a dualistic world view that's a real pitfall of the mind and gets one into psychological trouble. I'm sure if i wasn't raised a Catholic I would not have this Devil manifestation. Also, a certain study (in the book "Anger, Madness, and the Daimonic") suggests that the Devil is a manifestation of unresolved issues with parents, which would fit my case and which fits the cases of case studies presented in the study. You will also see that in Jesus' mind God wanted his Son dead and that might have lead to his unresolved psychological problems - hence his struggle with the Devil in the desert.

Stan

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Posted: 12-21-07 20:21pm


The devil image is quite interesting actually, and a big problem for Christians. Really, it did NOT exist before Christianity became a formal religion. In case you didn't know, it started out as a cult, just like any other religion. The devil and other demons (there is a very old system of classifying them, check out a book called Dictionnaire Infernal) were simply ways of replacing old pagan beliefs. Christmas, for example, is a PAGAN holiday. The placing of it in December was not coicidence, nor was it the actual date of Christ's birth, if it happened. Early Christians knew that if they didn't replace pagan traditions, they would remain, so Christianity worked rather well for Christmas and what would become Easter. Anyway, the problem is that in Christianity, the Devil can be seen somewhat as a negative god, but paradoxically with less power than the, let's say, 'good' god. This creates vast problems in theology to which there are no answer. How can an all good god allow such evil? Is it possible to suggest that the devil, who is lesser than him, can actually affect his 'good 'works? Stuff like that creates big problems, whereas older religions like Zoroastrianism (which still exists, by the way), simply separate things into good and bad god with equal power. Good happens = good god. Bad happens = bad god. But in Christianity you have good and bad happn = good god bad god what god? Makes it very confusining, and Christian theologians have been wrestling with this problem since FOREVER. And yes, I totally agree, the industry is just that, an industry. If you got better, well, they wouldn't be making much money would they? I have yet to see a schizophrenic on any medication that is actually doing well. I've heard of them, but the more I hear the less I see. Another thing that Philo brings up is quite interesting. Most schizophrenic delusions and hallucinations are CULTURALLY conditioned. So for example you might have a common case here where the patient says "I'm Jesus." Go to Asia and it becomes bhudda, and so forth. Very interesting. I wish Jung won over because I hate Freud, I think he's total garbage, Jung was the only one with any real sense that the human mind is much more abstract than we think, and we don't even know the surface of what problems this could cause. Biology is one thing, but few people on this planet other than that nutjob Skinner would be willing to agree that we're simply a bundle of chemicals. Sure, there are chemcial processes, but do these affect everything? Is thought not partially independent of them?

irChris777

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Posted: 12-21-07 21:18pm


hi philo i love you and hope that you see the truth and i know how bad the suffering can get. it is like being mentally raped i remember i would sleep for maybe an hour or two each night for months with hell hell hell hell running through my head having the most satanic horrible demonically controlled nightmares imaginable. I also experienced the "voices" predicting things in the near future i couldnt possibly know as if to mock the fact that it was viewed as a mental illness. that was not some manifestation of a torn childhood. it was a purposeful and intentional demonic attack from an evil devil who does in fact in reality exist whether we would like to believe it or not. i dont hold to this popular post-modernistic view where there is no absolute truth and whatever is your view is "true for you." hypothetically all views or ways could be wrong but only one can be TRUE. denying that the devil exist is what gives him the real power. but knowing him when you see him and how to defeat him is when you will gain victory over him. modern psychology was born out of evolution and materialism. both of which are lies. it doesnt hold up to any person with common sense's scrutiny while the Bible lines up historically, archaeologically, experientially, prophetically, and any other kind of way you could scrutinize a book for thousands of years and believe me people all over right now trying to disprove it around the clock and cant. good and evil are in fact Good and Evil and not a matter of man's opinion or any fault of God since God is faultless. A belief in god doesnt produce the devil. the devil already exists in reality and chose evil on his own which will in the end only work out for the good of those who love God and for God's glory. catholocism is satanic. some catholics are saved i dont doubt since belief in Jesus Christ is sufficient however since they started out they teach any way to heaven other than Jesus Christ. in the past you bought your way in by buying away sins and now they teach if you die with a special necklace then you get into heaven (scapula). if your child dies before the priest rushes to the hopsital in time and sprinkles some h20 on his head oops sorry purgatory for your baby (purgatory doesnt exist btw according to the bible.) they rely on works and rituals and pray to mary and saints and say that mary is sinless, omnicient, etc... (all lies from the devil) and o yes since its christmas ill let you know santa clause comes from the devil as well- "he knows when you are sleeping and knows when your awake be good for goodness sake" HUH? santas is not omnicient, or omnipresent and omnipotent to deliver goodies in one night all over hes not god so why are people giving him God-like qualities?- he is designed to take glory away from God on the day we choose to celebrate his bday (whcih did replace a PAGAN Holiday and who decided that? the CATHOLICS of course- many messianic jews who believe in JEsus the mssiah of the tanakh still celebrate hanakuh because of this.). And Jesus was in fact God. (one thing the catholics do stand firm on lining up with scripture) He didnt have some psychological complex as you describe- he was perfect and was literally led into the desert and tempted by the devil. anyways ill post something on this forum details about what iv'e been through tomorrow- i work at 5am and must sleep. Good night philo and it comforts me that other people have suffered like me although i wouldnt wish it on anyone and i hope that god can use me to help you i care about you so much and he holds every tear we cry in his hand. "He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest under the shadow of the Almighty." Psalm 91. and btw the devil existed in the tanakh the jewish old testament for thosuands of years and God made the world and in Gen men began to call on the name of Yahweh in like chapter 3 i think- not religion but truth- calling on their creator God. religion is madeup- God made the world and men began to call on him. thats how it went down. The idea of one good creator God was entirely different from any other pagan gods to ever exist who all resembled men and called down a flood on men "down there cuz they were causin a rucuss." much evidence exist to support a worldwide flood and a young earth as well as the fact that civilization sprang up all over the earth at the same time in seperate parts with no known explanation (the tower of babel explains this as i said everything historically lines up with the Bible and i can explain anyones questions about any verse or apparent contradiction)i gtg to bed goodnight ill address this in more detail tomorrow. and it helps to read people suffering experiences and believe me ive suffered so ill post those tomorrow in detail.

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Posted: 12-21-07 22:10pm


The Bible you love tells people to stone adulterous women. How do you explain that?

Stan

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Posted: 12-21-07 22:48pm


Wow, you went a little too far there. You know that Catholicism DID NOT exist until 1054 AD right? Do you know anything about the history of your religion? And you bring up one big problem. You stated that "hypothetically all views or ways could be wrong but only one can be TRUE." Oh yeah, how do you know that's the view you believe? And the argument thus continues for centuries. I didn't mind the comments at first, but you're getting a little whacked at this point. You probably don't even know what the apocrypha are. You know that the first writings of Jesus occured 70 years after he died, right? Imagine if someone decided today, after 70 years, hey, I think I'll write a history of WWII. That's about how lame that is.

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Posted: 12-22-07 16:44pm


I agree with Stan here. Forget answering my question about the women, it'll just hijack my thread even more. You can start your own thread if you want.

irChris777

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Posted: 12-22-07 16:56pm


the fact that the gospels were written 70 years after Jesus' death by different authors in different places and go together so cohesively without contradicting each other yet giving very different accounts of the same events actually proves the fact that they are divinely inspired. there can be no other explanation- not even a massive conspiracy. the apocrypha does not jive with the rest of the Bible and they are CLEARLY fakes that have errors in facts evident to anyone with any grasp of the true Bible. As i said the Bible has held up to vast and intense scrutiny by so many people trying to disprove that it is infallible for ages that there can be no other explanation. there are people im sure working right now to disprove it as i am typing and they are getting madder and madder. the Qur'an for instance is a book written by Muhammed over a period of 23 years (compare that to the period of tiem the Bible was written Bible) 600 years after Jesus died and thousands of years after Moses that makes statements like Jesus was a prophet (when he in fact He claimed to be God all over the gospels and was prophesied to be God in the old testament Zechariah 2:10-13) if the qur'an was divinely inspired it would have said Jesus was crazy not Jesus was a prophet. because Jesus claimed to be God and the exclusive way to God's kingdom and not Muhammed. the reason i bring up Islam is because it is the only other one creator God religion that there is and the reason is because it is in fact adulterated Judaism/Christianity. the God of the Bible is real because when Moses asks him his name name he says "I AM that I AM" how cool is that? think about that statement for a second. he didnt say im "Goat God" or im "lightning God" he said I AM that I AM. he is unique and his Word is true everything else is false. i know it. and i know it also experientially since He delivered me from what has become to be known as "schizo." i suffered indescribably for 2 years straight thinking that there was something "wrong with my brain" or people were conspiring to do this to me until i realized the truth. now i live a normal life again. and so can philo. philo JEsus also saved the adulterous woman from getting stoned and said let he who has not sinned cast the first stone and they all walked away. God revealed himself to us in stages. first his holiness and our sin and wretchedness and then his love and mercy and taking the payment himself. what a beautiful masterpiece.

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Posted: 12-22-07 16:59pm


i didnt mean to hijack your thread philo sorryz- i make my responses smaller k

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Posted: 12-22-07 19:13pm


I think that God was so wretched in the Old Testament that he had to send his son to save himself from his own hell.