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Kypros

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Richard Is My Boyfriend Posted: 12-14-07 07:40am


Several months ago, there was a fantastic one-off drama in which a woman, Anna, with the mental age of 5 has sex with her boyfriend, Down's Syndrome-sufferer Richard, with whom she lives communally in a care home. After finding a condom under her bed and noticing her daughter feels sick, Anna's mother realises her daughter is pregnant and, with the advice of her friend, illegally buys an abortifacient pill from the Internet using her ex-husband's credit card, telling him she needs the money to take Anna on holiday. She gets Anna to swallow the pill "to take her tummy upset away" and the pregnancy is aborted. With Anna bleeding everywhere, she takes her to the hospital where they inform the family Anna was pregnant and had miscarried. As the plot progressed, Anna's father fought in court for her right to be sterilised, have sex with Richard, and experience emotional relationships, whereas her mother contested this, and finally won, although was met with a shock when her ex-husband told her that he was reporting her to the police regarding Anna's abortion, after he forced the truth about the 'holiday' out of her, and there it finished. Ethically, who is right? Was it moral for Anna's mother to terminate her daughter's pregnancy? Should Anna even be having sex at all? Also, if it is unethical to force Anna to have an abortion when she doesn't even know she's pregnant and can't conceptualise this, surely it must be immoral to force her to be sterilised/use birth control? Discussion time.

diamond splinter

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Posted: 12-14-07 08:03am


This is a very hard scenario to come back on. on the one hand anna is emotionally a minor and needs looking out for but shouldn't that have been what was happening before she got pregnant? i know that you cannot watch out for kids 24/7 but as you say she had the emotions of a 5 year old and how many parents would leave a 5 year old alone with a boyfriend long enough for them to have sex? the mother should have sought medical advice rather than just feed anna a abortionafenic at the very least disscussed this with anna her father and annas boyfriend their really is no answer i can give to this in all honesty but i would hate to think that mental disability could be a reason to abort against the mothers wishes. Birth control could be the way forward as a short term solution until the relative authorities had a chance to liase with anna her parents and her boyfriend.

Jincks013

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Posted: 12-14-07 08:30am


Thanks I'll pass another endless round of what if's to a hypothetical situation. Shakes head..

Birch

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Posted: 12-14-07 11:27am


Adults with Down's syndrome are still adult human beings with all rights afforded to them. Her mother was ethically wrong to terminate her pregnancy, and her father was ethically wrong to attempt to force sterilization. This would be a case of eugenics. IMHO

yodavater

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Re: Richard Is My Boyfriend
Posted: 12-14-07 12:57pm

Kypros wrote:

Was it moral for Anna's mother to terminate her daughter's pregnancy? .

No. Elective abortion, whether forced or voluntary, is never moral.

diamond splinter

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Posted: 12-14-07 13:13pm


It cannot be both elective and forced which is it to be?

yodavater

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Posted: 12-14-07 13:17pm

diamond splinter wrote:

It cannot be both elective and forced which is it to be?

"Elective" refers to whether or not it is medically indicated".

"Forced" or "Voluntary" refers to whether or not coertion was used.

diamond splinter

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Posted: 12-14-07 13:21pm


thank you for clearing that up i was led to beleive elective was you elected to abort

Kypros

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Posted: 12-14-07 20:27pm

Birch wrote:

Adults with Down's syndrome are still adult human beings with all rights afforded to them.

Her mother was ethically wrong to terminate her pregnancy, and her father was ethically wrong to attempt to force sterilization. This would be a case of eugenics. IMHO

Abortions, particularly late-term ones, in cases of foetal abnormalities and retardation may be seen as eugenics (I'm not saying this is my view, it's just food for thought). I will agree, however, that forced abortion, even in this case where Anna wouldn't even know what pregnancy means, is immoral, as would be forced sterilisation. In sight of these conclusions, why would it not be unethical to compel Anna to use other forms of contraception, which, again, she has neither chosen nor will ever understand? Where do you draw the barrier at what is moral and what isn't and based on what?

I guess it makes you re-think whether the age of consent was created in terms of physical age or mental age.

Kypros.

Cambion

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Posted: 12-15-07 04:56am


But, had the pregnancy continued, how would Anna's mother have possibly explained what was happening to the girl's body because of the pregnancy? Would this woman - with the mental capacities of a kindergartener - have been able to fathom what was happening to her, and would she be able to deal with it when she started throwing up, having contractions and giving birth? Not to mention the chance of the offspring being royally messed-up considering the parents' sparkling genes. I don't agree with forcing medical prodecures on anyone, even if they are speds. But I think it was for the best in this situation because the pregnancy/birth process may have caused her lasting mental damage (and, if she was on any medications, she most likely would have had to stop taking them so the pweshus widdle snowflake growing inside her wouldn't be brain-damaged more than she was).

Darkmoon

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Posted: 12-15-07 05:23am


I'm curious as to who would have raised the resulting child if the pregnancy had continued. Should the girl's parents have been forced to take up the burden? How much emotional trauma would it have caused the girl to complete a biological process she couldn't understand, discover that she had a baby to play with (remember, mind of a five year old), only to have it taken away from her? If she had been a five year old in body as well as mind would people have been as forgiving of the boy for having sexual relations with her, downs syndrome or not? It's still the equivalent of someone having intercourse with a child, and the age of her body shouldn't have made a difference. It's an awful situation no matter how you look at it, but this isn't a case of a person of sound mind and body having the choice taken from them. This was a person with a child's mind, and I'm sure her parents have had a horrible struggle raising her. I can't say I'd blame someone for being unwilling or unable to do it all again yet also being unwilling to break their daughter's heart by taking a breathing, crying baby away from her to be adopted by someone else.

Becky

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Posted: 12-15-07 09:33am


I watched this programme too and i must say it was excellent. I didn't know who's side to take in this.

Birch

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Posted: 12-15-07 10:33am


I believe that it is common practice for adults with Down's living in a communal home environment (in the US) to be given a contraception via injection.

sillyakchick

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Posted: 12-15-07 12:55pm


Birch, you are correct. All the residents with whom I worked while providing residential care were taking a birth control pill, whether they were sexually active or not. This is a really hard case. I don't think the girl's mother should have gotten an abortion pill off the internet. What's wrong with talking to the gir's physician and having an abortion in a clinic? I am sure this girl's mother is her legal guardian, and by that she can make medical decisions for her. If this had been my daughter, I would have taken her for an abortion and then gone with a long term birth control option, such as Mirena or the old fashioned IUD. I would not want to have to care for her child, and also would not want her to have to go through a pregnancy and delivery at her mental age. I don't think there is anything wrong with the girl having intercourse, as long as the person she's doing it with is of her choosing and is not taking advantage of her mental status to engage in intercourse (ie, if both of them are of similar mentality). But like I said, this one is really tough.

Kypros

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Posted: 12-15-07 14:05pm


sillyakchick, I don't think that the emphasis was on the illegal abortifacient pill, but just the termination in general. The drama was extremely realistic. In fact, the only actors were Anna's mother, her best friend, and Anna's father, so everyone else's lines were not scripted, I believe. What I'm getting at is that in reality, the average person is not aware of the law regarding abortion. The lady may have believed that Anna's father and care home would have needed to be informed of the pregnancy. The point is though, Anna is legally old enough to have sex, so forced abortion could be viewed as wrong; by law, Anna as a minor is entitled to choose termination as an option without her guardians' consent or knowledge, so why should she be an exception. Based on these and also my personal perception that forced abortion/anti-choice is unethical, I oppose Anna having an abortion as decided by her mother (and any other case where a parent makes the decision for his/her child's pregnancy). I suppose this should be the same for contraception (including sterilisation) unless anybody can explain why this must be different? Kypros.

Birch

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Posted: 12-15-07 15:11pm

Kypros wrote:

...
Based on these and also my personal perception that forced abortion/anti-choice is unethical, I oppose Anna having an abortion as decided by her mother (and any other case where a parent makes the decision for his/her child's pregnancy). I suppose this should be the same for contraception (including sterilisation) unless anybody can explain why this must be different?

Kypros.

My answer is, what does Anna want?

She has the right of self determination as no one has deemed her incompetent and as far as I can determine from the information given she is her own guardian.

sillyakchick

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Posted: 12-15-07 15:20pm


IF she has the mentality of a five year old and her mother is her guardian, power of attourney, etc than I think that by law her mother should be able to decide for her what to do. I think it would be far more humane to do as I stated above than to terrify a girl who does not have the ability to understand any of these things by forcing her to carry and then give birth to a child. I don't believe this would be the same case for an underage girl of say 16 years who is not developmentally disabled-she is able to understand the repurcussions of carrying a child to term. The girl described above is not. I would think, though to be able to tell for sure, one would have to interview Anna. People I have worked with who are like this are not able to even decide what color sheets they want, let alone whether or not to have or abort a pregnancy. I don't believe in forced abortion or forced pregnancy, but I am focused on what is best for Anna? Also, the program you describe may not have focused on whether the abortificant was legal or illegal, but the fact remains that her mother gave her an illegal drug without any medical guidance and then panicked and took her to the ER. She also lied to her daughter about what it was. I believe that was not only illegal, but also completely irresponsible. By law when administering medications to individuals in a group home setting we were required to tell each resident what they were being given and why it was being given to them. Birch-I realize no one deemed her incompenent prior to this occurence, but had there been a determination, what do you think the courts would have decided? Is she competent to carry deliver and care for a child? I don't know. I wish I had seen this it sounds very thought provoking. I don't think her mother did the right thing, but I don't necessarily think the right thing would have been to have her continue with a pregnancy she was not able to contemplate existed inthe first place. But, I am rambling. Maybe I am not correct after all but am trying to convince myself of it. I stand by if it were my daughter I would not reccommend continuing with the pregnancy.

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Re: Richard Is My Boyfriend
Posted: 12-15-07 18:06pm

Kypros wrote:

ate her daughter's pregnancy? Should Anna even be having sex at all? Also, if it is unethical to force Anna to have an abortion when she doesn't even know she's pregnant and can't conceptualise this, surely it must be immoral to force her to be sterilised/use birth control?

How can it be ethical to force her to SUFFER THROUGH the nausea and vomiting pf pregnancy as well as THE AGONY OF CHILDBIRTH when she wouldn't even understand why she was experiencing that hell?

It is barely tolerable when you understand exactly what is happening and desperately want the child. I can't even begin to fathom the cruelty of it in this situation.

Birch

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Re: Richard Is My Boyfriend
Posted: 12-15-07 20:36pm

futureshock wrote:

How can it be ethical to force her to abort?

I think what is "most" ethical would be to inform her what is going on (I'm sure even a five year old can understand that "there's a baby in your stomach, and it's going to make you sick and hurt real bad until it comes out") educate her on her options, and allow her to decide. If the parent deems her decision to be in conflict with her best interests, then other paths can be followed.

Prochoice for all.

While I would inwardly think, "man, this is what abortion is for" I would never advocate for it. I would advocate for the right of self determination.

Kypros

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Posted: 12-16-07 05:54am

Birch wrote:

Kypros wrote:

My answer is, what does Anna want?

She has the right of self determination as no one has deemed her incompetent and as far as I can determine from the information given she is her own guardian.

We are discussing what Anna would want. It is because she cannot express that due to her mental disability that both forced birth and forced abortion seem unethical. Anna is not her own guardian - she lives in a care home, where she met Down's Syndrome-sufferer Richard, who fathered her baby. She used to stay at her mother's house at weekends and Richard followed her there once. When Anna was in bed, her mother went out to the pub for half a pint after being enticed incessantly by her friend. It was at this point that Richard sneaked into the house and had sex with Anna (Richard obviously new what sex entailed and was a lot more forward-thinking than Anna). He brought a condom with him, as the carers in the home told him "he needed to use one if he ever had sex to protect them. The carers showed me how to put it on a banana", so Richard literally put the condom on the banana, which was later found rotting under Anna's bed by her mother. I suppose another thing we must question is the teaching of contraception in homes. My grandmother feels that a video showing a condom on a man's erect penis is essential and much more appropriate, particularly when considering people of such a mental capacity. I wholeheartedly agree.

sillyakchick wrote:

IF she has the mentality of a five year old and her mother is her guardian, power of attourney, etc than I think that by law her mother should be able to decide for her what to do. I think it would be far more humane to do as I stated above than to terrify a girl who does not have the ability to understand any of these things by forcing her to carry and then give birth to a child. I don't believe this would be the same case for an underage girl of say 16 years who is not developmentally disabled-she is able to understand the repurcussions of carrying a child to term. The girl described above is not. I would think, though to be able to tell for sure, one would have to interview Anna. People I have worked with who are like this are not able to even decide what color sheets they want, let alone whether or not to have or abort a pregnancy. I don't believe in forced abortion or forced pregnancy, but I am focused on what is best for Anna?

I suppose there needs to be a detailed legislation regarding mentally retarded individuals and those incapable of being able to give consent to a termination. Otherwise, they must be treated with discretion and given the option of choice (even though they cannot choose something they do not know to comprehend) as any other adult.

futureshock wrote:

How can it be ethical to force her to suffer mentally, because she does not even know what is happening to her bleeding body, and physically as she is in excruciating pain and screaming, because of the agony of abortion?

Neither abortion nor childbirth are desirable, but we need to take into consideration who has the right to decide the outcome of the pregnancy: Anna, who cannot even understand that she has a baby growing inside her let alone know about childbirth and abortion, even when told time after time? Or Anna's mother, which would make any result of the pregnancy equivalent to unethical force and anti-choice? This is what I'm trying to establish.

Birch wrote:

think what is "most" ethical would be to inform her what is going on (I'm sure even a five year old can understand that "there's a baby in your stomach, and it's going to make you sick and hurt real bad until it comes out") educate her on her options, and allow her to decide. If the parent deems her decision to be in conflict with her best interests, then other paths can be followed.

I'm sorry, but I find it inane to even conceive that Anna, as a bearer of the mentality of 5-year old, could make an educated decision on the future of her pregnancy. Try telling a 5-year old. Grown women often feel they made a terrible choice and regret it, let alone a mentally-disabled woman.