Joined: 25 Oct 2007 Posts: 122 Location: New Jersey, USA
Thanks: 10
Thanked:5
Posted: 12-18-07 13:07pm
Quote:
I have no knowledge of your situation, but
let me ask you this: How did this
incident make you more likely to abort?
Do you blame babies for
it?
If you would like to read my story, it's
on the pro-choice forum. It's very long,
and would take too much time to write
again. The incident didn't make me more
likely to abort, per se, but angered me to
the point that my pro-choice stance became
stronger. I'm not quite sure what you
mean by "blaming babies", though.
lucy315
wrote:
Many pro-life and
pro-choice advocates have probably
committed homicide, but unless it has to
do with abortion/abortion rights, it makes
no sense. Just because a pro-choicer
killed a pregnant woman, doesn't mean he
did it because of his or her abortion
stance. Even if he had killed her because
she wouldn't abort his child, it's still a
"personal" situation.
Gotta disagree with you there, that kind
of thing has everything to do with
abortion. If abortion wasn't legal, that
wouldn't be
happening.
I do see your point here. However, I
still don't see how this is pro-choice
violence. I tend to view pro-choice
violence as violence that happens against
a pro-lifer because of opposing views on
the topic. Yes, he and his girlfriend had
opposing views, but not necessarily about
abortion. (she could have been pro-choice
as well) He killed his girlfriend
because he didn't want the responsibility
of fatherhood, not because he was
pro-choice and she was not. If it had been
someone else's pregnancy, he probably
could have cared less. Very sad either
way.
|
Snug
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 12 Dec 2007 Posts: 151 Location: In the jacuzzi, silly.
Thanks: 21
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Posted: 12-18-07 18:17pm
sistersister
wrote:
In my many years around the
clinics I have found that the anti
abortion protests at the gates tend to
draw out men who have not been exactly
sucessful in their own lives who have
control issues where women are concerned.
It is the one place these guys can go and
yell a women they do not even know, call
them names and verbally abuse them with
out condemnation by their
cohorts.
Yes, in general, men become frothing at
the mouth clinic protesters after they've
tried and failed to control the women in
their lives. It can be something like
refusing to accede to a demand for more
children. Or it can be a woman choosing
abortion against her partner's wishes.
Heck, it can be something as minor as a
woman deciding to get a job when her
husband doesn't want her to.
It's kind of sad that some men let their
need to control women take over their
lives.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-20-07 14:07pm
sistersister
wrote:
I know more about you than you know are
you not the bearded geezer outside the
Knoxville clinic?
Yeah, that sounds like me..... do your
"spies" claim that I "shout" at the
customers there? Do they, really claim
that? What liars they must be, you ought
not believe anything they tell you, then.
sistersister
wrote:
As for shouting things Let's see from our
protestors
I am not one of "your protesters", am I?
Are any of "your protesters" posting here?
Hey, it's easy to tell lies about people
when there's not here, isn't it?
sistersister
wrote:
Provoking someone to anger usually gets a
reaction, an angry reaction.
And it takes very, very little to
"provoke" some people. Our mere presence
there is enough to "provoke" many people
to anger. I guess you could say they have
a "hair trigger" when it comes to anger.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-20-07 14:11pm
sistersister
wrote:
I will add that not all the
male protestors fall into that catagory
just a very high
percentage.
Look, I'm not interested in a mud throwing
contest, so let me just ask you this: If
your accusations about prolife protesters
were all true, and maybe even understated,
how would that make it more moral to
electively kill unborn babies?
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-20-07 14:25pm
lucy315
wrote:
The incident didn't make me
more likely to abort, per se, but angered
me to the point that my pro-choice stance
became stronger. I'm not quite sure what
you mean by "blaming babies", though.
Well, if you are not more likely to abort
because of your experience, then we feel
that our cause has not been harmed. We
are not campaigning to become popular, we
are out there to save the lives of babies.
We know for a fact that many of our
tactics save babies, and alienate some
people at the same time. But as long as
those people who are angry at us do not
become more likely to abort, we'll just
keep on saving babies and take the heat of
their anger.
lucy315
wrote:
He killed his girlfriend
because he didn't want the responsibility
of fatherhood, not because he was
pro-choice and she was not.
Probably true, but my point is that if
abortion was illegal, then she wouldn't
have had to refuse him his demand to
abort, she could've just said "Oh I could
go to jail for that, and you too". Then
maybe she'd still be alive.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-20-07 14:46pm
[quote="Snug"]
sistersister
wrote:
In my many years around the
clinics I have found that the anti
abortion protests at the gates tend to
draw out men who have not been exactly
sucessful in their own lives who have
control issues where women are concerned.
.
Okay, I didn't see any need to quote your
whole rant against male protesters, but
let me ask you this: If any or all of
your mud actually stuck to the wall, how
would that make it more moral to kill the
babies that those men are trying to save?
|
Darkmoon
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 Dec 2007 Posts: 346 Location: ,
Thanks: 55
Thanked:40
Posted: 12-20-07 14:53pm
I'd like to chime in that if a man kills
his girlfriend or beats her to the point
of miscarriage because she refuses to
abort, he is not prochoice.
|
sociable_recluse
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 30 Nov 2007 Posts: 88 Location: , UK
Posted: 12-20-07 14:58pm
yodavater
wrote:
lucy315
wrote:
He killed his girlfriend
because he didn't want the responsibility
of fatherhood, not because he was
pro-choice and she was not.
Probably true, but my point is that if
abortion was illegal, then she wouldn't
have had to refuse him his demand to
abort, she could've just said "Oh I could
go to jail for that, and you too". Then
maybe she'd still be
alive.
Because he has such a healthy respect for
both her and the law that he'd turn around
and say "yes dear" wouldn't he?
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-20-07 15:00pm
Darkmoon
wrote:
I'd like to chime in that if
a man kills his girlfriend or beats her to
the point of miscarriage because she
refuses to abort, he is not
prochoice.
As long as he favors the availability of
legal abortion on demand, then he IS
prochoice.
You really don't see it, do you? Take the
blinders off. Prochoice means supporting
the woman's right to choose what to do
with her own pregnancy, not take that
right away. A man that removes the choice
from his girlfriend or wife by either
ending her life or inducing miscarriage
through violence or subterfuge is NOT
prochoice.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-20-07 15:32pm
Darkmoon
wrote:
You really don't see it, do you? Take the
blinders off. Prochoice means
,,,,,,,,,,,,, .
Don't see what? That your "fantasy
definition" takes precedence over that
which we find in most dictionaries? No,
not by a long shot.
Call me old fashioned, but I'll stick with
standard reference sources.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 12-20-07 16:46pm
Darkmoon
wrote:
I'd like to chime in that if
a man kills his girlfriend or beats her to
the point of miscarriage because she
refuses to abort, he is not
prochoice.
Lol! Ah duuuur. Very much not pro-choice.
|
jenn_smithson
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Posts: 808 Location: Texas
Posted: 12-20-07 16:56pm
yodavater
wrote:
Darkmoon
wrote:
You really don't see it, do you? Take the
blinders off. Prochoice means
,,,,,,,,,,,,, .
Don't see what? That your "fantasy
definition" takes precedence over that
which we find in most dictionaries? No,
not by a long shot.
Call me old fashioned, but I'll stick with
standard reference
sources.
The definition of
prochoice is one who favors/supports
legalized abortion.
It is ILLEGAL to end another
person's pregnancy through violence
without their consent. Thus, it is not a
"legalized abortion" and thus, it is not
"prochoice" per the dictionary definition.
|
lucy315
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 25 Oct 2007 Posts: 122 Location: New Jersey, USA
Thanks: 10
Thanked:5
Posted: 12-21-07 02:05am
yodavater
wrote:
Well, if you are not more
likely to abort because of your
experience, then we feel that our cause
has not been harmed. We are not
campaigning to become popular, we are out
there to save the lives of babies. We
know for a fact that many of our tactics
save babies, and alienate some people at
the same time. But as long as those
people who are angry at us do not become
more likely to abort, we'll just keep on
saving babies and take the heat of their
anger.
I'm not more likely to abort, but I am not
less likely to either. If I decided not
to continue another pregnancy (which
hopefully will never happen), it would
have nothing to do with a protester, but
with me and my situation at the time.
Quote:
But as long as
those people who are angry at us do not
become more likely to abort, we'll just
keep on saving babies and take the heat of
their anger.
What anger are you taking? The anger from
clinic patients who you bothered? Of
course they are going to get upset! They
just want to be left alone. Abortion is a
very difficult decision to make for most
women, and they are all very aware of what
they are about to do. Most are very
scared and some are very sad. The last
thing they need is someone shouting
"MURDERER" at them. You might have to
take anger from them, but you are the one
that is causing it. And remember, those
women are also taking anger from you.
Quote:
Well, if you are
not more likely to abort because of your
experience, then we feel that our cause
has not been harmed.
That's great for you and your cause, but
what about me and other women who have
been "harmed" by protesters? Do we not
matter? Do you think we deserve it? Just
because I had an abortion, doesn't give
these people the right to touch me, chase
me, throw things at me, and stand behind
my car to stop me from leaving. Not to
mention screaming to EVERYONE on a very
busy street that I just killed my baby!
Your cause may not have been harmed, but I
was scared for my life (and my
boyfriend's). You have to wonder how far
some of these people will go to save a
"baby".
|
sistersister
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 145 Location: ,
Posted: 12-21-07 06:57am
One thing that anyone who works at a
clinic knows is that the "protestors" and
their bad behavior does nothing to stop a
patient from coming to a clinic or having
an abortion.
I have seen women climb over a ladder to a
second floor window when "protestors" had
blocked and handcuffed themselves to the
entrance of a clinic.
yoda
for some one who claim not to want to get
into a mud throwing contest you sure seem
to like to instigate them. Perhaps you
should rephrase your statement to you do
not like having mud thrown back at you
after you begin flingging mud.
As to lying about what the egomaniacs at
the gate do, I do not have to lie. Nor am
I the only one even on this thread that
has heard and seen the behavior.
I have hours of tapes (love those mini
recorders) of the scream fests carried on
at the gate. To say nothing of pictures.
I always thought they should be made into
a cd and sent to every city council that
thinks these are just peaceful xians.
Perhaps I should start a web site of my
own. It could be all this material in the
morons own words and voice.
My favorite is a picture of cheryl
sullinger (second in comand of operation
rescue/ operation rescuse west an
convicted bombing conspirator) with her
pastor, dorman owens (convicted in samed
bombing case) holding up a banner that
reads AIDS-GODS PEST CONTROL. You can
just feel the xian warmth rolling of of
them as they hold this banner in front of
a womens clinic (of course they also used
to take same banner to the county hospital
where most of the Aids patients were at
that time and hold it so those patients
families would have to walk pastit on the
way to visit their dying folk.
Are any of our protestors posting here? I
would not know. How ever since you seem
to be an ardent admirer of the profit, er
phophet troy and he claims to be one of
our protestors ( though we hardly see him
more than once a year) and you parrot his
misinformation about us then I say you are
here to speak for them.
Besides the topic of this thread is my
boss. Wether what has been posted about
him is true. I'm here to answer. Your
here as one of his accusers. I can
support what I say and if you really think
I have lied then be specific and I will
show my proof.
After all I am here every week and you
yourself have stated you have not been
here. I am reporting what I see and hear.
You are calling me a lier even though you
have not been here and have absolutely no
first hand information.
On the other question any man (or woman
for that matter) who beats to death a
woman who refuses to get an abortionis not
prochoice. tha tis pretty much a no
brainer. Besides if he had no fear of
going to jail becuase beating her to death
is illeagle then it is pretty foolish
tothink he would not act the same becuase
abortion is illegal.
Now we have at least two prominent anti
abortion men who have convictions for
violent actions aginst women. One of
spousal abuse and one for rape and beating
of a young woman that was still a minor.
Can I infer from that that becuase they
claim to be "prolife" that they beat these
women becuase they were "prolifers" .
|
Jincks013
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 1168 Location: ,
Thanks: 20
Thanked:6
Posted: 12-21-07 07:44am
So yoda you think its okay for a woman to
be beaten to death because he S/O doesn't
want the pregnancy and she does? YOu think
its acceptable to kill her then? You are
pro-what? again.
|
Syrenity
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 12 Dec 2007 Posts: 24
Posted: 12-21-07 08:02am
yodavater
wrote:
Probably true, but my point is that if
abortion was illegal, then she wouldn't
have had to refuse him his demand to
abort, she could've just said "Oh I could
go to jail for that, and you too". Then
maybe she'd still be
alive.
Are you really serious? If abortions were
illegal, he likely would have jumped
directly to killing her. You can't
honestly think that some one who has
respect for the law would commit homicide.
This is not a case of pro-choice violence,
this is a case of violence against women.
Something that, IMO, you indirectly
advocate by believing that a that a victim
of rape resulting in pregnancy should be
forced to carry to term. That is like
taking a rape & extending that
violation 9 months. Sickening.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-21-07 13:28pm
jenn_smithson
wrote:
It is ILLEGAL to end another
person's pregnancy through violence
without their consent. Thus, it is not a
"legalized abortion" and thus, it is not
"prochoice" per the dictionary
definition.
You are either misrepresenting, or simply
misunderstanding my position. The
violence is not what made him prochoice,
and I never claimed that. I simply asked
whether or not you think he would be in
favor of legal abortion.
Do you?
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-21-07 13:32pm
lucy315
wrote:
I'm not more likely to abort, but I am not
less likely to either. If I decided not
to continue another pregnancy (which
hopefully will never happen), it would
have nothing to do with a protester, but
with me and my situation at the time.
My point, exactly.
lucy315
wrote:
Not to mention screaming to EVERYONE on a
very busy street that I just killed my
baby! Your cause may not have been
harmed, but I was scared for my life (and
my boyfriend's). .
I've yet to hear of any "clients" being
harmed by a prolife protester. And I'm
sure it would be headline news in every
major paper and on tv if it ever happened.
No, I don't scream at anyone, in fact I
hardly ever speak to them. But since I
wasn't there, I won't comment on what
"they" did.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 12-21-07 13:35pm
sistersister
wrote:
One thing that anyone who
works at a clinic knows is that the
"protestors" and their bad behavior does
nothing to stop a patient from coming to a
clinic or having an abortion.
I've personally seen several women change
their minds at the clinic here in
Knoxville, and been told that one woman
credits me personally with saving her
baby. And I've read about many, many
other women who have thanked protesters
for being there and "saving their
babies".
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