|
oopoopoop
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Mar 2004
Posts: 1363
Location: ,
Thanks: 58
Thanked:3
|
Eggs - An Observation
Posted: 12-16-07 15:48pm
|
|
|
|
I keep chickens. A good hen will lay 5 to
7 eggs a week. They will do this even
without a rooster being around. If you are
running a rooster with your hens, the vast
majority of the eggs laid will be
fertilised. Roosters are very enthusiastic
about their role in life, and will make
sure that just about every hen within
reach gets her fair share of attention
each day. Even so, most laying hens very
rarely go broody. That is to say, every
day the hen goes into the nest box, lays
an egg, and then comes out again. She has
no inclination whatever to sit on the egg.
That means there is a fertile egg just
sitting there. I can go and collect it and
put it in an incubator, and it would
probably develop and hatch into a chicken
21 days later. Or I can crack it open and
make an omelette. If you keep the egg
cool, it won't start to develop at all.
Somewhere warm, and after a couple of days
you would get a blood spot forming maybe,
but it would still be fine to eat.
But what you can't do is put the egg in
the oven, mash some potatoes and make
gravy, and expect to get a roast chicken
dinner. A fertilised egg is an egg. It
isn't a chicken.
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
|
Posted: 12-16-07 19:44pm
|
|
|
|
|
As a pro-lifer would say, "Not yet." I
don't see the point either, but they are
fond of saying that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 818
|
Re: Eggs - An Observation
Posted: 12-17-07 16:28pm
|
|
|
|
|
| poopoopoo
wrote: | | . A fertilised egg is an
egg. It isn't a
chicken. |
And your point would be.......???
Are you saying a fertilized chicken egg is
not of the same species as that of the hen
that laid it?
A newborn baby is not an adult, either...
but they are of the same species.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
oopoopoop
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Mar 2004
Posts: 1363
Location: ,
Thanks: 58
Thanked:3
|
Posted: 12-17-07 17:42pm
|
|
|
|
|
I'm saying an egg is not a chicken.
By extension, a fertilised human egg is
not a human being.
The chicken lays a fertilised egg, but
chooses not to incubate it. Mammalian
reproduction is so...poorly designed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
|
Posted: 12-17-07 17:54pm
|
|
|
|
|
Well it makes it possible to keep the
developing embryo far safer. It keeps it
in a temperature regulated environment
that ALSO allows the mother full mobility
- no egg to sit on. The parents aren't in
danger of a lizard coming along and eating
the eggs since the entire jalopy is
contained within the mother's abdomen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jincks013
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1174
Location: ,
Thanks: 22
Thanked:9
|
Posted: 12-18-07 07:43am
|
|
|
|
|
Very nice post Poopoopoo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 818
|
Posted: 12-18-07 10:42am
|
|
|
|
|
| poopoopoo
wrote: | I'm saying an egg is not a
chicken.
By extension, a fertilised human egg is
not a human being.
|
That makes absolutely no sense. We all
know a fertilized chicken egg is not an
adult chicken, nor is it a newly hatched
chick. So what?
"Human" is a species classification, NOT a
developmental stage, like "zygote", or
"child", or "adult".
So if you want to compare poultry to
humans, at least acknowledge that a
fertilized chicken egg is of THE SAME
SPECIES as the adult chicken.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
|
Posted: 12-18-07 19:12pm
|
|
|
|
|
She's using "human being" the way I use
"person"; a distinction between fetus and
born. Just like the distinction between
fertilized egg and chicken.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jincks013
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1174
Location: ,
Thanks: 22
Thanked:9
|
Posted: 12-18-07 21:58pm
|
|
|
|
|
| yodavater
wrote: | | poopoopoo
wrote: | I'm saying an egg is not a
chicken.
By extension, a fertilised human egg is
not a human being.
|
That makes absolutely no sense. We all
know a fertilized chicken egg is not an
adult chicken, nor is it a newly hatched
chick. So what?
"Human" is a species classification, NOT a
developmental stage, like "zygote", or
"child", or "adult".
So if you want to compare poultry to
humans, at least acknowledge that a
fertilized chicken egg is of THE SAME
SPECIES as the adult
chicken. |
1. they are both mammals
2. the comparison is apt; you wouldn't
refrian from having a chicken dinner or
egg breakfast becasue you might be
destroying a living being that was
entitled to life ; which makes you a
hypocrit.
3. the arguement isn't about the same
speicies it was about placing the same
value on the egg as the chicken who laid
it.. rather like placing the same value on
a fertilized human ovum.
This should be apparent to anyone with at
least a highschool sophmore biology class
behind them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 818
|
Posted: 12-20-07 13:29pm
|
|
|
|
|
| poopoopoo
wrote: | I'm saying an egg is not a
chicken.
By extension, a fertilised human egg is
not a human being.
. |
Your semantic arguments are pitiful.
" Gallus domesticus" is the scientific
name of domestic chickens. Are you saying
that a fertilized egg does not belong to
that species?
While common usage of the word "chicken"
may or may not include one of it's
fertilized eggs, the same is not true of
the common usage of the term "baby" or
"human being". There is no such confusion
as regards humans.
"Homo sapiens" is the scientific name of
our species, and "human being" is the
precise vernacular equivilent of that
term. "Human being" NEVER means "adults
only".... it means every member of our
species.
Homo sapiens
modern human beings. [L. wise man]
http://www.stedmans.com/s
ection.cfm/45
American Heritage Dictionary of the
English Language
http://www.bartleby.com/61/
HUMAN:
1. A member of the genus Homo and
especially of the species H. sapiens.
Definition Homo sapiens
noun SPECIALIZED
human beings considered together as a type
of animal
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.
asp?key=37696&dict=CALD
Information Please: http://www.infopleas
e.com/ipd/A0481706.html / hu'man
be'ing 1. any individual of the genus
Homo, esp. a member of the species
MSN Encarta Dictionary http://dictionary.msn.com/
hu·man be·ing (plural hu·man be·ings)
noun 1. member of the human species: a
member of the species to which men and
women belong. Latin name Homo sapiens
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 818
|
Posted: 12-20-07 13:31pm
|
|
|
|
|
| Jincks013
wrote: | [
3. the arguement isn't about the same
speicies it was about placing the same
value on the egg as the chicken who laid
it.. rather like placing the same value on
a fertilized human
ovum.. |
YES, it IS about SPECIES....... anytime
you use the term "human being" or "Homo
sapiens" you are using the labels of OUR
SPECIES....
Those two terms are NOT developmental
terms...... we do NOT "grow into" our
species.... we inherit it from our parents
upon fertilization.
|
|
|
|
|
|
sociable_recluse
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Location: , UK
|
Posted: 12-20-07 13:57pm
|
|
|
|
|
| yodavater
wrote: | | Jincks013
wrote: | [
3. the arguement isn't about the same
speicies it was about placing the same
value on the egg as the chicken who laid
it.. rather like placing the same value on
a fertilized human
ovum.. |
YES, it IS about SPECIES....... anytime
you use the term "human being" or "Homo
sapiens" you are using the labels of OUR
SPECIES....
Those two terms are NOT developmental
terms...... we do NOT "grow into" our
species.... we inherit it from our parents
upon
fertilization. |
I think you'll find that she wasn't
arguing that it wasn't the same species
rather the focus of the argument was on
valuing an egg over a sentient chicken.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sandbox Party
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 7276
|
Posted: 12-20-07 14:16pm
|
|
|
|
|
i like to eat eggs..
and if an egg is a *species* and a
*species* is human..
does that make me a cannibal?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 818
|
Posted: 12-20-07 15:04pm
|
|
|
|
|
| sociable_recluse
wrote: |
I think you'll find that she wasn't
arguing that it wasn't the same species
rather the focus of the argument was on
valuing an egg over a sentient
chicken. |
I didn't see the word "value" in that
post, but I think that the species concept
is of paramount value in any debate about
the term "human being", since that is a
label for our species.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 818
|
Posted: 12-20-07 15:05pm
|
|
|
|
|
| Sandy_Pants
wrote: |
and if an egg is a *species* and a
*species* is
human.. |
That's the whole point..... "egg" is not a
species......
|
|
|
|
|
|
sociable_recluse
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Location: , UK
|
Posted: 12-20-07 15:14pm
|
|
|
|
|
| sociable_recluse
wrote: | | yodavater
wrote: | | Jincks013
wrote: | [
3. the arguement isn't about the same
speicies it was about placing the same
value on the egg as the chicken who laid
it.. rather like placing the same value on a
fertilized human
ovum.. |
YES, it IS about SPECIES....... anytime
you use the term "human being" or "Homo
sapiens" you are using the labels of OUR
SPECIES....
Those two terms are NOT developmental
terms...... we do NOT "grow into" our
species.... we inherit it from our parents
upon
fertilization. |
I think you'll find that she wasn't
arguing that it wasn't the same species
rather the focus of the argument was on
valuing an egg over a sentient
chicken. |
| yodavatar
wrote: | | I didn't see the word
"value" in that post, but I think that the
species concept is of paramount value in
any debate about the term "human being",
since that is a label for our
species. |
See above, i've highlighted it for you.
Just for the record, i'm one of those pro
choicers for whom the concept of a zef
being a human being is irrelevant. It
could be doing the hokey cokey for all i
care, it doesn't have the right to violate
my bodily autonomy without my consent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Georgia59
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 5557
Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 90
Thanked:32
|
Posted: 12-20-07 15:19pm
|
|
|
|
|
Aren't debates better if we actually
attempt to see the viewpoint of the other
person? Just a thought.
some people seem to purposely avoid seeing
the other person's point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 818
|
Posted: 12-20-07 15:21pm
|
|
|
|
|
| sociable_recluse
wrote: |
See above, i've highlighted it for you.
Just for the record, i'm one of those pro
choicers for whom the concept of a zef
being a human being is irrelevant. It
could be doing the hokey cokey for all i
care, it doesn't have the right to violate
my bodily autonomy without my
consent. |
Okay, now I see it. And I disagree that
"value" has anything to do with the use of
the terms we are discussing.
Okay, then if you feel that way, at least
you are being honest about it. I may be
horrified by your sentiment, but at least
you're not lying about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
|
Posted: 12-20-07 15:36pm
|
|
|
|
|
| yodavater
wrote: | | Sandy_Pants
wrote: |
and if an egg is a *species* and a
*species* is
human.. |
That's the whole point..... "egg" is not a
species...... |
We had someone on here trying to say the
uborn was a "race" (aka they had their own
culture). Pfft!! A culture? They can't
even communicate with each other!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 818
|
Posted: 12-20-07 15:43pm
|
|
|
|
|
| Eiri
wrote: |
We had someone on here trying to say the
unborn was a "race" (aka they had their
own
culture).! |
Obviously someone who was misinformed.
However, I've seen much more incredible
claims coming from prochoicers. Like "The
unborn are not alive", or "the unborn are
not humans", or "the unborn
creatures/things/being/(you name it and
I'll deny it)."
|
|
|
|
|
