Joined: 23 Dec 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Kansas City, KS, USA
Can My Daughter Be Bipolar?? Posted: 12-23-07 14:03pm
I have a 4 year old daughter that has more
mood swings then an average adult. Her
biological father is bipolar and so is his
sister and mother. Is there a chance my
daughter is bipolar? I want some advice
before I go to her doctors about my
questions so I know what to ask and
everything. Can anyone help?
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CarolDiane
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Posted: 12-23-07 15:45pm
Bipolar being a blood deficiency could be
genetic. I think Georgia59 would best to
answer that. Me personally, I as a mother
would probably take her to see someone to
be tested.
Mood swings are nothing new at that age,
but you have a family history of the
disorder and might not be a bad idea to
rule it out anyway. At age 5 it is
sometimes hard to see what you think may
be normal and may not or vice versa.
Just go and tell them exactly the way she
has been acting. If you find there have
been cirtain times this happens more then
others, mention that too. Just let them
know her daily domeanor and that should do
it. Then they will decide whether it
mimics bipolar and if indeed it warrents
being tested. Good to get it early if it
is true.
Does she act out her anger alot? And then
all of a sudden she is happy go lucky?
Good Luck,
Carrie
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kflynn7
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Dec 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Kansas City, KS, USA
Posted: 12-23-07 20:48pm
Her attitude changes all the time
lately... I thought at first it was
because I'm pregnant and the baby is
getting closer and closer to being here.
But when me and my fiance were talking
about her mood swings and her attitude
changes he mentioned something about
bipoler disorder and that triggered my
memory i guess you could say. I remembered
that her father and his family are
bipolar. I remember wondering about if she
would be bipolar but I haven't had it
checked.
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CarolDiane
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Posted: 12-23-07 21:34pm
Now that you have mentioned you are
pregnant, this is a whole new ball game.
Of course I still would not rule out
biplar disorder by any means but, she my
instead be going through the normal stage
of "Hey, I not going to be the princess
anymore' type deal and this is very normal
at her age. She very well could be acting
out as a precursor to the up coming event.
Remember, she was your only little girl
till now. Some take new siblings very
well, others ( well we won't go there).
Just keep a close I on her after the baby
comes and don't leave her along with it
untill you know for a few months what her
actions will be. She may feel as someone
is now taking her place. All I am saying
is be vidulant.
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ladylee70
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 1912 Location: Boise, Idaho,
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Posted: 12-23-07 21:42pm
MsCarrie
wrote:
Bipolar being a blood
deficiency could be genetic.
Good Luck,
Carrie
Confused...what do you mean by blood
deficiency?
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CarolDiane
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Posted: 12-23-07 21:57pm
Bipolar is the lack of Lithium in the
blood. You body is natually supposed to
produce Lithuim. For those of us who are
BP means there is no Lithium being
produced by the body. As I wrote in
another thread. A base blood draw needs to
be done. Then the patient is givin a small
dose of lithium. If the result comes back
(I think it is) .05 or less after that
dose, that means the person is not
producing it on it's own which causes
bipolar and needs to be treated with a
lithium medication supplement.
Hope that made sense. I was a .05 or lower
and was given the test which brough me up
to a 0.9 after my second dose. That is a
perfect level. I won't go into detail but
the doctor wanted to see me a bit higher
after I told him it felt like a brick had
been taken off my shoulders. He then put
me on a third does. It just did not work
out well at all. There are more up to date
safer medications out not that most here
on the board are one I have heard. I just
take my Klonopin which has a componient
for BP in it.
BTW: I was diagnosed back in the mid 80s.
I am no 60 years old a doing fairly well
if I say so myself, for all that is wrong
with me.
Carrie
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Mr_Del
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 25
Posted: 12-24-07 16:09pm
Bipolar in children? Very possible. The
only problem you wil see is that most will
not diagnose it as such in children
because they think it is not possible.
They often get diagnosed ADHD and treated
for that. This does not help at all with
bipolar if any is there. It is genetic so
having a parent with it does boost the
chance a child may have it.
I got 4 young ones and suspect one of
girls may have BD soley on the fact that
she will go a couple weeks at a time with
hardly any sleep and function fine. She
has no hyperactivity out of the norm but
is calmer than normal for her age group
(7). I see no trouble from the school side
so I have done nothing to confirm
suspesion. Will just see what time
brings.
One of my boys definantly has ADHD. I have
to use the same teniques on him that I use
myself for concentration. Does not always
work but at least I am famililar with it.
Unfortunatly he is to young (6) for anyone
to even consider diagnosing him with ADHD.
Have not seen much of the bipolar realm in
him yet.
My oldest girl (12) is just now starting
to show possible signs of BD. Very minor
but no telling what a traumatic experiance
will bring out.
The other boy (10) is deaf and mild CP.
Because of that it is very difficult to
see any signs of either BD or ADHD. I
think he may have gotten lucky and is free
from both. Just his physical limitations
are showing in behavior.
I really wouldnt worry much about it
unless you see trouble at school or with
scocialability. Other than that just let
em be kids. You want to let them go as
long as they can without diagnosis of
anything. My youngest will have to be
diagnosed soon and start the ADHD
treatment. His is getting in the way of
school and scocialability. The other three
don't have me concerned at the moment.
Just for the record. I am BD 1 (Almost
borderline.) Also have real bad ADHD.
Interesting fact I found. Those with ADD
often also have tinitus (RInging in the
ears)
-Del
One more thing. A major change in family
routine can change the behaviors in
children. She may have realized how big a
change it is going to be with baby
comming. She could be becoming insecure in
ways that she will no longer have all the
attention (Assuming your second is on the
way). Or maby Baby is almost here and you
cant physicaly give the attention you
normaly do. This will cause some acting
out as there is an attention gap now
present. Negative attention is still
attention. Im not saying force yourself to
give adiquate attention. You cant help
what your body is going through and how it
responds to it. Your daughter will adjust
in time and be back to her old self again.
Just be patiant and try to assure her that
you are not "Putting her off". I know your
not. When baby comes try to keep her
invovled somehow (Age appropiate) in the
baby rotines. Simple things like Grap a
diaper, bring me the bottle, If old enough
help change baby. As long as she still
feels wanted she will go back to normal. I
could just be that she fears you wont give
her as much attention as you normaly do.
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CarolDiane
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007 Posts: 2390 Location: ,
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Hmmmm Posted: 12-24-07 17:47pm
Odd that you should mention that Mr_Del. I
also have trouble with ringing or sounds
in my ears. Usually very high pitched.
Carrie
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ladylee70
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 1912 Location: Boise, Idaho,
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Posted: 12-24-07 17:53pm
MsCarrie
wrote:
Bipolar is the lack of
Lithium in the blood. You body is natually
supposed to produce Lithuim. For those of
us who are BP means there is no Lithium
being produced by the body. As I wrote in
another thread. A base blood draw needs to
be done. Then the patient is givin a small
dose of lithium. If the result comes back
(I think it is) .05 or less after that
dose, that means the person is not
producing it on it's own which causes
bipolar and needs to be treated with a
lithium medication supplement.
Hope that made sense. I was a .05 or lower
and was given the test which brough me up
to a 0.9 after my second dose. That is a
perfect level. I won't go into detail but
the doctor wanted to see me a bit higher
after I told him it felt like a brick had
been taken off my shoulders. He then put
me on a third does. It just did not work
out well at all. There are more up to date
safer medications out not that most here
on the board are one I have heard. I just
take my Klonopin which has a componient
for BP in it.
BTW: I was diagnosed back in the mid 80s.
I am no 60 years old a doing fairly well
if I say so myself, for all that is wrong
with me.
Carrie
I have never heard of that at all. Sounds
pretty interesting. Are you sure the
information you have stated is a fact?
Please state where you found this
information. I would like to read the
actual research conducted in this area. I
am not stating that what you say is false,
I just want more information.
My understanding is that they actually
don't know what causes bipolar.
Researchers are still in the process of
trying to determine what exactly causes
bipolar disorder. The answer is not as
simple as a shortage of lithium in the
blood. If it were, then the world would be
a much easier place for people with
bipolar and they would easily be treated
with how much lithium they are lacking in
their body.
Some other possibilities include, but not
limited to:
An imbalance in the neurotransmitters,
especially dopamine
Abnormality in certain parts of the brain
Unusually high cortisol levels
Size of hippocampus (unusually large)
People with bipolar disorder have a
superfast internal clock
Specific viruses such as Borna Virus and
Herpes Virus
I don't necessarily believe in some of
those listed above. They are just
currently being studied as having a
correlation to bipolar. I believe quickly
listed some other theories out there with
bipolar. I don't believe there is a single
cause for everyone.
Sorry to the original poster. I veered
off of your original topic.
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andrewcorbin20
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Posts: 24 Location: Charlottesville, VA USA
Are You Serious? Posted: 12-27-07 13:17pm
Bipolar is the lack of Lithium in the
blood. You body is natually supposed to
produce Lithuim. For those of us who are
BP means there is no Lithium being
produced by the body. As I wrote in
another thread. A base blood draw needs to
be done. Then the patient is givin a small
dose of lithium. If the result comes back
(I think it is) .05 or less after that
dose, that means the person is not
producing it on it's own which causes
bipolar and needs to be treated with a
lithium medication supplement.
Hope that made sense. I was a .05 or lower
and was given the test which brough me up
to a 0.9 after my second dose. That is a
perfect level. I won't go into detail but
the doctor wanted to see me a bit higher
after I told him it felt like a brick had
been taken off my shoulders. He then put
me on a third does. It just did not work
out well at all. There are more up to date
safer medications out not that most here
on the board are one I have heard. I just
take my Klonopin which has a componient
for BP in it.
BTW: I was diagnosed back in the mid 80s.
I am no 60 years old a doing fairly well
if I say so myself, for all that is wrong
with me.
Carrie
Carrie,
A doctor really told you something weird
and unusual. Your body produces an
extremely tiny amount of lithium, that
doesn't even show up in the blood, only
urine, which no test actually exists for
the urine. You're not supposed to have a
theraputic lithium level, unless you are
on the medication. No one knows why we
have bipolar disorder, it's still being
researched. Also, lithium is not a
supplement. And, lithium is very safe, and
effective, for a lot of people. Of course
not everyone (obviously you), but for the
most part, it's a life saver. Also with
other meds combined, klonopin, risperdone,
abilify, zyprexa, etc, etc.
Anyway, who told you this stuff/where did
you get it from? SO curious.
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Damnit
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Jan 2008 Posts: 6
Posted: 01-09-08 16:50pm
I have no doubt in my mind that it's
possible. My dad and me, same thing. But I
don't know if it's a good idea to bring a
4 year old to get help.... you do have to
remember that 4 year olds are KIDS... and
I don't know if medicine is the right
thing.... I could be totally wrong, but
that's just my opinion. I know if I had a
kid, I wouldn't try to drug them up right
away.... I would wait till their preteen
years to see if they're still the same or
not. It's a tough call, and I wish I had
the perfect answer for you. I would just
be very careful with her, it's something
you should wait and see if it gets better
or worse. I wouldn't decide right away
what I'd do about it... time tells all.
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anttm04
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 121
Posted: 01-09-08 23:22pm
bipolar in children is, indeed, entirely
possible. My son was diagnosed at a very
young age with ADHD and a mood disorder.
his psychiatrist had always thought that
it was bipolar, due to his symptoms and
his family history with the disorder. I
was told that they don't like to diagnose
bipolar in young children because that
diagnosis will stay with them and could
have career limiting consequenses in the
future. My son was finally diagnosed
formally with bipolar (along with the
ADHD) at the age of 9. He is now 10 and is
managing quite well. Some things to
consider are that bipolar looks (or may
look) a lot different in children than it
does in adults. A website that I found
helpful for learing about bipolar disorder
in children is at http://www
.bpchildresearch.org/juv_bipolar/index.htm
l
As to whether there is an imbalance or
lack of lithium in the bloodstream, I
can't say, however, my child is not on
lithium at the present time. He has
currently being treated with Strattera for
ADHD and Risperdal for the mood issues. It
seems to have worked rather well for the
time being so we have no need to explore
the use of lithium at this time. I hope
that I have been some help to you. Please
feel free to contact me via pm any time.
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designlady
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 07 Jan 2008 Posts: 55 Location: , USA
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Been Through This! Posted: 01-10-08 12:48pm
I can totally relate. I have a son that's
had this problem since that age and his
diagnosis took forever. Basically, his
doctors say that bipolar disorder is very
rare in children, but children like yours
and mine are at a greater risk for
developing it later either during puberty
or maybe in their early 20s. The big issue
is that no drugs are available for
children for bipolar that have been
approved by the FDA.
So, here's what they did for my son. (And
we go out of town to the best specialist
in our state--so listen up.) My son's
psychiatrist said that, FOR NOW, we're
treating it like ADHD. He also has traits
of OCD and anxiety disorder. He's highly
perfectionistic and extremely intelligent.
He has a LOT of mood swings and anger
issues, too. Some of this, at his age, can
only be treated through intensive
psychotherapy.
As far as ADHD goes, there are several
different types... not just the one where
you can't focus. My child can focus. He
has the type where he's very impulsive and
has mood swings. The doctor has prepared
us that this may be very early onset of
bipolar, but we won't know for sure and
can't treat with bipolar meds until he's
older. The meds he takes are Focalin XR,
which slows him down and helps with his
racing thoughts, impulsive behavior, and
"motor mouth;" Strattera, which helps with
the same thing, but is a different type of
drug. I don't think it works well by
itself, but it seems to help when mixed
with the Focalin. The issue is that the
side effects cause sleeping and eating
problems. To address that, he's on 1mg of
melatonin at night for sleep and a med
called Periactin for appetite that also
makes him drowsy, so he takes it right at
bedtime. He also drinks a Pediasure every
night before going to bed. It's hard to
keep his weight on. He just started the
Periactin; I'm hopeful that he will gain
soon. He's a tiny thing for his age.
There's no telling exactly what your
daughter needs because everyone is
different and everyone reacts to different
meds in a different way. It was hard to
diagnose my son because his academic
grades are perfect. Most kids with ADHD
suffer in school. His problem was conduct,
from being hyper one minute, mad the next,
and crying sometimes for no reason. The
meds are helping a great deal, but he
still has a long road ahead of him.
Your story just struck close to home
because your daughter's behavior sounds so
much like my son's before we sought
treatment. I would advise you to use much
caution with a doctor who is quick to
medicate a child as young as yours. My son
is a lot older (he's 8 years old). Most
importantly, get some good references
before choosing a child psychologist or
psychiatrist. It could make all the
difference in her progress.
Hope this helps. Best of luck.
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Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5542 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
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Posted: 01-21-08 12:57pm
Bipolar disorder is genetic, in the sense
that your daughter is more likely to get
it because you have it. Because of that,
it is considered to be partly genetic, but
also caused by other influences. I think
the common idea now is that a person has a
biological predisposition for it, and
certain environmental or psychological
factors can bring it out (or sometimes
it's inevitable, in my opinion)
I think definitely take your daughter to
get checked out. Get a few opinions.
Carrie- when you are taking lithium,
doctors definitely have to monitor lithium
levels in your blood to make sure that
they are at the correct levels to medicate
you (and not over medicate you) but I've
never heard that our body naturally
produces it.
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Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5542 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 89
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Posted: 01-21-08 12:59pm
However- childhood bipolar is less common,
usually it doesn't present until later,
right? I agree with Carrie, perhaps it has
to do with the pregnancy. But only you
know your daughter, keep an eye on her and
seek help if you need it.
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antigone
Moderator
Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 912 Location: IL
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Bipolar disorder in children Posted: 01-27-08 15:00pm
I am the mom to two children that have
bipolar disorder (bpd). Bpd can and is
diagnosed in children. Back in the late
1800's a german psychiatrist, Emil
Kraepelin, devised the DSM for mental
disorders. He was the expert of his time
and his word was law. Kraepelin did not
recognize and therefore dismissed the
possibility of bpd in children. Since the
late 1990's much of the psychiatric world
has revisited the thought that children
can have bpd. It is now accepted that
children can and do present with bpd but
the signs and symptoms differ from that of
an adult.
Children can present with bpd very early
in life. It is diagmosed by symptoms
reported by the parent(s) of the child (or
care giver). A pediatric psychiatrist
would take a very detailed history and
interview from the parents. The child will
be observed and interviewed, if
appropriate, by the psychiatrist. Usually
this occurs over 2-4 visits to the doctor.
Pediatric bpd has many symptoms. They
range from extreme separation anxiety,
raging, night terrors, unusually high
energy hallmarked with silly, giddy
behavior, agitation, irritable moods,
anger outbursts, unable to accept the word
"no" which often results in a "meltdown"
and raging tantrum, sensitivity to stimuli
often displayed in being very sensitive to
clothes - ie socks, shoes, tags in
clothes, the weave of a sweater or shirt,
pockets, the stictching on clothes, etc.,
complaints of feeling too hot much of the
time, "sugar addict" and craving
carbohydrates and sugary foods. This is
just a brief list.
My older son with bpd can be difficult. He
is often agitated, highly irritable and
becomes irate when he is frustrated. He is
easliy frustrated by tasks he can't
perform on the first try. Prior to being
treated he would go into what I call a
meltdown if he was told no. This IS NOT
just a kid being a brat. This is extreme
behavior. It would result in him falling
on the floor, screaming, crying, flailing
arms and legs and running blindly in anger
and distress. He was very sensitive to
clothes. Getting him ready for school was
a nightmare. I literally had to tie his
shoes 10-12 times before I got the tension
in the shoelaces "right". He refused to
wear socks that had a seam across the toe
because it bothered him. He had night
terrors that would wake him screaming in
fright. He told finally was able to tell
me and his doctor about the dreams. The
content was gory and usually involved him
being attacked and maimed in some way. I
could go on and on. Each child has their
own twist on bpd but some things are very
common. "The Bipolar Child" by Papolos and
Papolos is a well written book by a
psychiatrist and his wife, a psychologist.
It gives great detail into pediatric bpd
symptoms, treatments, the pathophysiology
of the disorder and tons of other
information.
I knew there was something wrong with my
3rd son. I had other children and they
never acted like my 3rd boy, even on their
worst day. I am an RN so I started to
question his behavior and moods. I took
him to be evaluated by a social worker. I
did not agree with what they said. I
continued to research and read and learn.
I didn't look at bpd at first. Why? I was
frightened. I finally started to read
about the disorder. Wow! The authors of
many articles must have been spying and
looking in the windows of my house! They
were describing my son to a tee. I sobbed
and felt sorry for myself, for him, for
his future. Then I found a pediatric
psychiatrist. After conducting the
interviews and taking the history she
asked me what I thought was wrong with my
son. I told her I believed he had bpd.
She told me that was her conclusion.
Later, she told me that was the easiest
confirmation of a diagnosis she had ever
had. I didn't get angry, cry or go into
denial. I just wanted help for my son.
Treatment varies for each person. It is
often trial and error. Some medications
work for some people and not others.
You suspect there is something wrong with
your daughter. You KNOW her better than
anyone on the planet. Go with your gut
instincts. Get her evaluated. Perhaps it
is bpd or perhaps some other disorder.
Early intervention is usually best in most
disorders. Medicating children is not
taken lightly, however, no intervention
leaves the child and family in chaos.
Lithium is a alkaloid that is produced in
small quantities in the body. It has been
used for treating the manic episodes in
bpd for many years. It is currently used
in this application with success. Blood
tests are done to check the serum levels
of lithium for theraputic range and
toxicity. Bpd is not a lithium deficiency.
It is a treatment for bpd. BPD is a mood
disorder and it is currently believed to
be a chemical imbalance in the
neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine and
norepinephrine and perhaps others.
Serotonin and dopamine are targeted with
medications to try to bring balance and
thus stability to the patient. There are
structural differences in the brains of
people with bpd. The pre-frontal cortex is
smaller with fewer glial cells compared to
those that do not have bpd. The
hippocampus shows structural differences
as well. There is more and more research
within the neurobiology field and science
community is trying to gain greater
understanding into the pathophysiology of
bpd and other mental health and
neurological disorders.
