Is There Any Way Out of My Schizophrenia? Posted: 12-25-07 02:19am
Hi, I'm Kaylyn. I have been suffering from
depression since I was young, was always
the quiet girl in school who kept to her
books and a few friends.
My mom used to beat and cane me for any
subject and activity for any given day
that my grades were anything less than the
given full score since kinder-garden It
wasn't particularly her fault, for my
relatives and extended relatives were
nothing short of spectacular, snobbish,
holier-than-thou, and full of knives. My
mom and I were never really communicative
even at a young age. Our relationship
seemed so grounded on a work basis, and
she avoided talking anything about her
(she asserted that it was her business and
no one elses, not even mine), to the
extent that even to today, at the age of
28, I don't really know anything much
about her, except what others have said.
My grades were average for my Secondary
school (middle school), and I was aiming
for a medical school degree. Practically,
my enitre childhood to teenage life was
held in restraints so that I could do well
in a career in adulthood. I fell into
depression due to failure from unable to
being in normal relationships. (until I'm
not sure what a relationship means
anymore). My grades fell drastically for
my A levels, and I graduated with
mediocur grades (removing all possiblity
for me to enter medical school).
I started working right after in a hostile
work environment, fell short of social
skills necessary, and left the job. I felt
so inadequate, only compounded when a
relative of mine and his family snubbed
me, hassling me (a very big
understatement) for my lack of grades and
my lack of appeal. I became
anti-authoritian against their reasoning,
and tried to strike out on my own. They
found an excuse to throw me into ECT. I
developed a high fever during a session.
They stopped treatment, and sent me to a
general hospital to be treated for the
fever. A few days later, people (which I
know now as delusions and hallucinations),
ballooned until I couldn't work, study,
socialise, feel, think or otherwise.
(everything I think, do or feel, results
in more hallucinationary assaults).
Anything that anyone tells me or says
about me, is automatically right, and
disagreeing even on the mental level
results in hallucinary attacks.
(the above are only some of the reasons
why I think I developed schizophrenia)
Everyone was attacking me, visually,
auditorily, even the vibes. People were
assaulting me even over the media,
television, radio, everywhere, for me for
my lack of capability.
Medication never really worked. I was
either sleeping or crazy, or inbetween
both. Neither did warding. And I have not
been working ever since for literally 10
years now. I just can't. Doing anything
that is worth any amount of effort, to
garner any significant success (because
I'm not good enough, its never good
enough), only results in more delusional
harassments.
Examples of obvious irrational delusional
harassments: (which avoiding them results
in even more harassments)
1. Having my own opinions is wrong unless
I have a PhD in that area. (which then
makes me qualified to interact on a daily
basis in that area)...
2. Real people don't lie. (White lies and
other forms of deceptions count as lies as
well)
3. I would never make it in life or
relationships. And I'll make a useless
girlfriend, wife, and mother.
4. Everyone hates me.
Generally, I've become autistic over the
years. I haven't been interacting normally
with people for so long, I don't even know
what vibes or body or facial expressions
(when they are normal (I can't tell
anyway), mean anymore. Nor can I "get into
a person's head"... Years of daily
schizophrenia have led me into a state of
oblivious ignorance, and my lack of
progress in any given area, especially
academic and career success, which my
entire life up till my late teens, have
been dedicated to, have led schizophrenia
to belittle me even more. Certainly my
lack of emotions to know what love is
anymore.
I'm in a constant state of having panic
attacks, because I'm almost always beening
assaulted by delusions. Either that or
being in bed asleep. Both of which are bad
choices.
I've been seeing various psychiatrists,
but none have really helped so far. The
only medium that is more stable for
communication would be the words on the
internet.
What's wrong with me?
Is there any way out of this?
~Kaylyn
|
irChris777
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 Posts: 23
Posted: 12-25-07 12:41pm
hi Kaylyn. i used to get assaulted with
criticism for every single thing i did too
even if it was a really nice helpful thing
then they would say it was for some
selfish reason. i never experienced visual
hallucinations other than dark flashes or
white flashes acc ompanied by voices which
would slander and accuse me and
horrendously threaten me(i would turn
green on the verge of passing out my heart
would beat out of my chest and my balls
would shrivel even if i didnt actually
feel fear leading me to believe that
people had things inside my body
controlling these things.). i went to
hospitals where no1 cared about me at all
and meds never did anything to make me
better. i would sleep maybe an hour a
night with "hell hell hell; running
through my head. i abandoned all hope and
believed them that i was in hell and would
sure enough begin physical torture and
rape at any moment forever and ever at any
possible moment and that they were really
god and were just toying with me and that
my whole existence was to suffer and that
for us to even exist made no sense at all.
WHEW glad thats all over. i have been
off meds for 7 months and i never hear a
peep. i lead a totally normal life. i
did it by talking to a pastor who told me
that the devil was attacking me. i
thought something was wrong with me or
people were conspiring against me because
i had poor social skills and just couldnt
talk to people and got filled with anxiety
so they all hated me and wanted to torture
me. not only did the pastor tell me it was
the devil totally calmly and what to do
(use the Word of God against their lies)
but told me exactly the steps they would
go through. first he said they would
continue to lie and it would get worse.
then there would be no point in lying
since i knew the word was true, then they
would proceed to harrassment, then i would
say thank god that my presnet sufferings
are nothign compared to the glory that
will be revealed in us in Christ JEsus,
then they would tempt, then they woudl
justleave me alone. it ahppend exactly
like that it has been 7 months i go back
to college in Jan. there is an
intelligent evil force with the intention
to torment and homicide you behind this it
isnt coming from your brain. if it is a
"brain disease" then why do mris reveal
our brains are the same as people withotu
schizo? and why cant they fix us with
their meds? the links they go through to
believe their materialist atheist godless
bull all becuz they love their sin and if
god was real theyd have to give it upl.
the doctors would talk to me for literally
25 seconds a day then walk away go throw a
dart at a dartboard to decide a med and go
cash their fat check and play some golf.
but jesus cares and so do i and there is
hope for you i love you please hang in
there ill get people to pray for you
|
irChris777
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Dec 2007 Posts: 23
Posted: 12-25-07 12:46pm
btw you are not useless God has a special
plan for you and i dont hate you i love
you and would do everything i could do to
protect you and comfort you and these
things are keepign you from school and
then criticizing you for being dumb cuz
you cant go to school with them slandering
you. i hate them theyll burn in hell.
ect is another owrd for we dont know what
the heck is wrong with you so were gonna
electrocute the crap out of you now. it
clearly made u worse. i love you im sorry
that happened. dont agree to that crap
every again please.
*Chris hugs
kaylyn*
|
Frangible
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 7
Posted: 12-27-07 19:21pm
Well, your post was sort of chilling to
me, though I do not have schizophrenia
(though I do have ADD inattentive). Your
childhood and education are similar in
many ways (though more harsh), I too had
many frustrations in getting treatment,
and we're about the same age; your writing
is very clear and intelligent so I felt
enough pangs of empathy to register and
reply.
First of all, I should post a disclaimer
that I am not a doctor, none of what I say
is a substitute for medical advice, and
the best course of treatment is to discuss
things with a medical professional.
But, my opinion is as follows...
Your
past
You had a very hard childhood, clearly
with little emotional nurturing. In a
related disorder, schizoid personality
disorder (which is mostly the negative
symptoms of schizophrenia, such as
flattened affect and social withdrawal),
the primary cause identified in medical
studies is a lack of emotional nurturing
during childhood. I believe those factors
may have predisposed you to experience
some of the negative symptoms you have
today.
Next, your emergence of positive symptoms
was preceded by great stress and possible
trauma via the ECT and fever. Emergence
of the positive symptoms of schizophrenia
tends to be after a period of great
stress, and it is possible that the
ECT/fever contributed additionally.
The nature
of SZ
In twin studies, schizophrenia only
occurred in both a little over half the
time. That means that genetic and
childhood environment factors certainly do
not doom you to SZ, and that behavioral
causes can be significant as well. So I
do believe there is a way "out" of your
SZ-- you did not always have it, and many
treatments are effective.
In SZ, the structure of the brain and
activity changes (which isn't to say these
changes are permanent-- the brain
constantly changes structure based on what
we do and experience, and constantly makes
new neural cells). For an example of
neuroimaging in SZ, see: http://www.amenclini
cs.com/bp/atlas/ch8.php
My understanding of this is that there is
regional hyperactivity in the limbic
system of your brain (the "reptilian"
brain controlling respiration, movement,
etc) and regional hypoactivity in the
frontal cortex, which is the most evolved
region of the brain and considered to be
the "seat of consciousness"-- it receives
inputs from the limbic system and
striatum. Generally, hyperactivity in the
limbic system is associated with
impulsiveness and increasing the strength
of perception, and hypoactivity in the
frontal lobe is associated with the loss
of ability to suppress impulses, plan
things, etc. A specific region in the
frontal cortex implicated in suppressing
activity in other regions of the brain is
the orbitofrontal cortex.
The causes
of SZ
There are many theories as to why this is.
Most of them involve the
neurotransmitters dopamine and glutamate,
which are excitatory neurotransmitters and
stimulate activity as a whole. With low
dopamine levels in the frontal lobe, your
higher brain functions are disrupted, and
high DA levels in the limbic system mean
you have overwhelming input as well.
Glutamate is what is chiefly implicated as
communicating between different regions of
the brain, and in SZ disruption of the
glutamate system results in a disruption
of synchronized brain activity. One study
I read showed wildly different EEG results
in various sections of the brain in SZ
patients, and yet, relatively consistent
EEG scores in normal controls.
Other theories, especially those focusing
on the negative symptoms (not
hallucinations) involve overactivity of
the opioid system due to increased levels
of beta endorphin. Beta endorphin is
released in response to pain, physical or
mental, and sustained levels slow down
neurotransmission (creating "mental fog"),
inhibit the normal release of
catecholamines during exercise (making it
very difficult and fatiguing), and also
blunt emotion and empathy.
So, what causes the DA/GLUT abnormalities,
and what causes the increased BE levels?
Pain causes the rise of BE, and one theory
paper I read suggested this was due to
negative avoidance-based coping
strategies. Basically, giving up, feeling
helpless, running away and isolating
yourself, that kind of thing. This
creates lots of mental pain, and will
spike BE levels in anyone. Social defeat
stress has been shown to increase BE
levels significantly in studies, which in
turn has been shown to decrease empathy
and increase pain tolerance.
This sort of coping strategy also has
negative consequences for the dopamine
system. In the striatum and frontal lobe,
dopamine generally governs executive
control/planning, impulse inhibition, and
motivation/goal-directed behavior.
Interestingly, these dopaminergic pathways
develop or atrophy with use. In people
who have to take on the role of a parent
at an early age and really, really use
these abilities that dopamine supports,
they develop very strongly. Yet in
learned helplessness, depression, ADD, or
when people are not engaging in these
behaviors, these pathways atrophy.
Further, stress plays into this as well.
Long-term levels of high cortisol bind to
GR/MR receptors in the pituitary gland,
which have a direct relationship with the
brain's dopamine system. With excessive
stimulation, the GR/MR receptor density in
the pituitary increases, and this is
followed by diminished ACTH secretion.
This is turn lowers dopamine release.
Conversely, dopamine decreases GR/MR
density in the pituitary and this results
in greater ACTH secretion. In cases of
post-traumatic stress disorder these
changes are especially noted.
SZ
treatments
You appear to have both positive and
negative symptoms of SZ. Typically,
antipsychotics or atypical antipsychotics
are used here, but it seems like from your
description-- and you could only truly
know this with a SPECT scan, I'm just
guessing-- you may have not that
exaggerated of activity in the limbic
system and suppressed activity in the
frontal lobe, so as a result these drugs
just suppress neural activity as a whole
too much. It is possible that a lower
dose or different antipsychotic may work
for you. Another possibility for negative
symptoms is a psychostimulant like those
used in ADD, but these run the risk of
making the positive symptoms worse. If
you do explore this route with your
doctor, make sure you are carefully
monitored and only slowly increase your
dosage upwards.
Next, another treatment of SZ used for a
very long time before antipsychotics is
DHEA, a neurosteroid that reduces both
positive and negative symptoms with very
few (if any) side effects, and is sold
OTC. However, the effects are relatively
modest, but I would give it a try if I
were you.
Stress reduction and meditation are
effective interventions in many studies
for SZ, as are social skills training and
group therapy. These all help diminish
some of the stress and social factors
underlying the cognitive dysfunctions and
symptoms. Do not underestimate the
importance of behavior therapies. A
product (I have no vested interest with
btw) you might be interested in is [edit
for advertising].. METT/SETT trains you to
recognize facial displays of emotion and
is produced by the very well known and
respected Dr. Paul Ekman who pioneered
that field of research.
Finally, nicotine is known to be
beneficial for SZ, but I would recommend
not using tobacco products due to the
cancer risk. A nicotine patch or
something might be helpful, but like other
stimulants, take care it does not worsen
positive symptoms.
My
advice
Try different medications, do therapy and
behavioral work. Isolation and avoidance
will only make things worse.
Having opinions is not wrong, it's
natural, and without opinions you could
not function or survive.
Real people lie and are honest. The
natural of man is dualistic, even if the
ideal is not.
You probably can make it in a
relationship, even if not today, consider
that your experiences have probably made
you appreciate good social connectedness
more than normal, as well as being
emotionally available for your child.
Some people may have hated you, but most
people in the world do not know you, and
most people would not hate you if they
did. The only emotion I feel towards you
in writing this is compassion.
Write down the negative and delusional
thoughts you know are wrong, then
challenge them and write down something
optimistic/true (like I just did). Or
rephrase them in the form of "X happened
and I felt Y, but I would have preferred Z
instead."
I hope this post didn't overwhelm you, but
you seem very intelligent so I suspect it
may give you new directions to explore.
Your intellect and writing are tremendous
assets to you, and with them you can
understand and change things for the
better.
Some books you might like are "Emotional
Intelligence", "Social Intelligence", and
"Destructive Emotions" by Daniel Goleman,
though they are not about schizophrenia
per se.
Remember, compassion begins with yourself.
You as a human being alone are of equal
value and worth to all others, no matter
their accomplishments or crimes, and just
as deserving of happiness. And I for one
hope you can overcome this and be well and
happy, for you deserve no less.
|
woops
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 Jul 2007 Posts: 222
Posted: 12-27-07 20:34pm
I hate to tell you this, your probably
just intelligent, and or good.
Who in their right mind would not be
depressed, not a disease. Sociality,
you've got to be kidding me if you think
that that is important.
I hate to tell you this also, it's a good
sign that you don't meld with this world,
it's tough i know, but it will be so worth
it.
People that do well here are very messed
up in the head, simple as that.
What you are going through is an age old
problem, people like you have always been
down trodden beat up, and the so called
normal people that are actually able to
have a good time here(dumb) get on to you,
they just don't see why a person could be
depressed or not enjoy this or not be
social, do they?
So, shocking the hell outta someone will
fix it, it's a cryin shame.
|
Frangible
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 7
Posted: 12-27-07 22:51pm
I'm not sure why someone removed the
METT/SETT CD link from my post, as it
isn't advertising and I have nothing to
gain from it nor any association, but
anyway, if you are interested just Google
for Dr. Paul Ekman and click on "products"
on the site. This is used more in
academia than for consumers, but is
mentioned in Goleman's "Social
Intelligence" and seems an effective way
to help train recognition of facial
emotions along with greater social skills
training and exposure. It also gives you
a metric from which you can judge your
current skills, which I'm going to guess
probably aren't as bad off as you think.
It's sort of like the Nintendo DS title
"Brain Age" for facial emotions. Which
are an important cornerstone of social
rapport and communications, and is
something you can train. No, you don't
need the METT/SETT CD to do so, but it
provides very rapid feedback which is
nice. There was also an article in
"Scientific American Mind" about 6 months
back written by Ekman that has a lot of
examples of facial emotions, so picking up
that might be another option.
Quote:
I hate to tell
you this, your probably just intelligent,
and or good.
Who in their right mind would not be
depressed, not a disease.
It is in everyone's best personal interest
and true nature to seek happiness and
avoid suffering. Therefore, someone in
their right mind would endeavor to be
happy and not depressed, and although
unlikely to attain any one state
permanently, through experience and effort
be happier overall most of the time. This
is reflected in studies that show greater
left prefrontal cortex activation
correlating with happiness.
Interestingly, did you know anger and most
emotions categorized as "negative" showed
strong right prefrontal cortex activation,
and both hemispheres of the pFC cannot be
strongly activated by emotion at the same
time. Anger, hatred, sadness, etc prevent
you from being happy in a very real and
neurologically objective way.
Quote:
Sociality, you've
got to be kidding me if you think that
that is
important.
Socializing is very important to
well-being, and in turn, mental and
physical health. The largest factors for
risk of heart disease are not smoking or
obesity-- they are actually social
isolation and anger. Social connectedness
indeed makes people happier, have less
stress, and thus, a stronger immune
system, and lower risk of cancer and
cardiovascular disease in studies.
Also, one other thing studies have shown
is that a strong contributor to happiness
is doing good deeds and helping others.
The happiness of others is the happiness
of ourselves.
Out of pure self-interest alone, even the
most selfish man after studying the latest
scientific research on these topics would
have to conclude it was only in his
logical best interests to be social and
kind.
But remember, all of that starts with you.
You have to be compassionate and kind
towards yourself before others. And you
must see yourself as being of equal worth
to others before seeing others as equal
worth to themselves.
Quote:
I hate to tell
you this also, it's a good sign that you
don't meld with this world, it's tough i
know, but it will be so worth
it.
How is isolation and feeling you don't fit
in "worth it"? It will not bring you
happiness, it will only isolate you and
make you suffer greatly. In avoiding the
traumas of the past, you can make yourself
hurt far more now and in the future than
those things ever hurt you. At some
point, you simply have to choose to do
things that make you happy, and part of
that is being social.
There is no "this world" as any singular
entity anyway. What is this world? The
planet and everything on it? Then you are
a part of it as much as anyone else is,
equally. And like them, you were born
from elements on the planet, and to them
your body will return upon death. You
were always part of and in harmony with
it, for you could not exist and be
anything else, that's just the laws of
physics and biology. It is only the
illusion that you are not that makes you
feel otherwise.
Quote:
People that do
well here are very messed up in the head,
simple as
that.
Some of them are lucky, but most simply
plan to be successful and work hard to
attain that goal. Success is the result
of doing certain activities in the right
environment. It is the natural outcome of
such a thing. That does not make someone
"messed up in the head", it most often
just means they planned well and worked
hard. True, there are some exceptions to
this, and some hurt others to get ahead,
but in the end generalizing the actions of
the few to everyone as a whole only hurts
you.
Quote:
What you are
going through is an age old problem,
people like you have always been down
trodden beat up, and the so called normal
people that are actually able to have a
good time here(dumb) get on to you, they
just don't see why a person could be
depressed or not enjoy this or not be
social, do
they?
Auditory hallucinations are not an
age-old, common problem... they are a very
uncommon one. Yes, suffering is a fact of
life, as is depression, but in most people
depression lasts no longer than six
months, and most people have some degree
of social connectedness.
Do you really think the cause of not being
depressed or schizophrenic is a lack of
intelligence? The actual data shows
higher intelligence actually lowers the
risk of mental disorders as a whole.
The cause of any mental disorder is a
complex interplay of behavior, genetics,
and the environment. Ultimately, it is
through understanding the cause we can
find treatment. And that is very
important, because it helps to grant
people freedom to make choices, and the
freedom to find happiness.
Being trapped in your own mind, unable to
choose, pounded by relentless torrents of
overwhelming thoughts and voices is
neither freedom nor happiness.
Quote:
So, shocking the
hell outta someone will fix it, it's a
cryin shame.
Sometimes it does, though ECT should only
be used rarely and when all else has
failed. I find it barbaric in general,
but I can't dismiss the accounts of people
who were significantly helped by it when
all else has failed.
|
Frangible
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 7
Posted: 12-28-07 14:35pm
This will likely be my last post here
unless someone poses a specific question,
but I wanted to include links for further
reading that may be of interest to other
posters in this thread:
I chose these specifically as they are
more accessible and easier to read than
the medical journal articles they are
based upon, and the full texts are freely
accessible online. Perhaps some of this
information may be of benefit to you.
Once again, I would like to reiterate that
this tangential discussion, while an
important component of behavior, is
secondary to treating the core symptoms of
schizophrenia, which is most effectively
managed with a combination of medication
and therapy in partnership with your
doctor.
|
woops
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 Jul 2007 Posts: 222
Posted: 12-28-07 15:20pm
hmm, so I'm completely wrong then?
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
|
woops
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 Jul 2007 Posts: 222
Posted: 12-28-07 15:26pm
But seriously, happiness? C'mon.
Happiness?
It just doesn't mix well with a bunch of
people dying, sorry.
And it takes a certain immaturity and un
knowing to undergo happiness.
It just isn't a happy world, do you
understand that? And to be happy, well,
simply put, you would be wrong.
|
Frangible
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 7
Posted: 12-28-07 19:29pm
Yes, death is suffering. The nature of
life itself imparts suffering, and there
is much in the world you can grow attached
to or dissatisfied with that make you
unhappy. Even Freud described the goal of
therapy as not binging people happiness,
but rather a return to the "general
unhappiness".
But there is also happiness in the world.
Happiness is not something random. It
occurs in the brain in response to a lack
of anger, hatred, fear, etc and by being
grateful, helping others, having hope for
the future, and working towards it.
It does not mean you are immature--
rather, happiness is difficult to develop
and requires tremendous maturity,
discipline, and knowledge.
It would be quite nice if that would not
require effort, maturity and knowledge,
but as at least several studies have
shown, happiness is the result of doing
certain things (and avoiding some others)
with consistency after a lot of thought
and introspection.
Does that mean you must be blind or
ignorant to the negative, to the suffering
in the world, in your own life and the
lives of others? No. It does not. What
it does require is that you do not develop
excessive negative emotions in response to
those things. It requires that you do
have hope for the future... not in a
religious or even a global for mankind
sense, but that by your actions you can
transform your will into reality. It
requires you are grateful for what you
have.
In that, you can see the duality of this.
We can be grateful for what we have, or
disappointed in what we do not have. Both
are absolutely, objectively true. And we
really only focus on one at a time.
People who focus on what they do have, and
develop being grateful for that, are
happier. They are not blind to what they
lack, they simply do not become
emotionally involved or obsessed with it.
People who focus on what they do not
have, and develop craving, jealousy, etc
are on the other hand not quite so happy.
They are not blind to what they have
either, they simply do not feel grateful
about it, no matter how much wealth or how
many possessions they have.
Unfortunately, the largest difference here
is in the long-term effects. Someone who
is grateful will continue to gain wealth
and possessions, but will always be able
to gain some degree of happiness by being
grateful for what they have-- there is no
limitation, no resource to exhaust for
that. Whereas someone who is craving the
next thing, jealous of others who have it,
will feel pleasure and relief of these
emotions for a short time after acquiring
it. However, those feelings will not
last, and the cycle will repeat itself.
And it is like that for many things. If
someone has wronged you, you may feel
vindicated to hate them. And many would
agree with you. Yet hatred for them
disrupts your life and ruins your mood and
level of happiness. And you may or may
not ever get revenge or justice, and see
them suffer in return. Even if you did,
the unfortunate truth is it never feels as
good or makes it all seem worthwhile as
you'd think. So the long-term effect is
that you make yourself suffer greatly,
perhaps far greater than that person ever
did, and may or may not even get to make
the other person suffer-- mostly likely
not. And even if you do, it does not make
up for the suffering inflicted upon
yourself.
Does that mean we should let the guilty
walk free, and that people who hurt others
should be forgiven and not brought to
justice? No. It does not. It simply
means that we do not allow those things to
consume us, and to drag us down.
So why do we have these emotional
responses if they don't make us happy?
Why is being happy so much damn work, and
require so much knowledge and
introspection? It comes down to survival.
In the case of being dissatisfied with
what you have, you acquire more, and this
can help you survive in earlier times in
human history when others did not. In
hating someone who has wronged you, you
remove a threat from your environment, and
in earlier times there was no justice
system or police force.
Quote:
And to be happy,
well, simply put, you would be
wrong.
Or perhaps you are simply overriding
instinctive and emotional responses to
things that were great and useful when
people lived in caves and got chased by
bears and tigers, but actually make us
suffer in today's life, for little (if
any) benefit.
