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How Can You Apply a Law to Your Own Liking?abortion homicide? Posted: 01-05-08 13:17pm
If killing a fetus is homicide than why is
not, why is it that even in dictionarys
and law books and it is not deemed
homicide? anyone up for grabs and no
religion BS straight facts..
Defintion of homicide as defined in law,
wikipedia and webster dictionary....
homicide is the unlawful killing of a
human person (YES HUMAN PERSON READ
DEFINITION BELOW)with malice aforethought.
homicide is generally distinguished from
other forms of homicide by the elements of
malice aforethought and the lack of lawful
justification. All jurisdictions, ancient
and modern, consider it a most serious
crime. Most jurisdictions impose a severe
penalty for its commission.
Sometimes the term homicide is used by
laypersons to describe what is really
another form of homicide. homicide is a
type of homicide, and relatively few
homicides are murders in law. Also, police
will often call their investigation into a
homicide a homicide investigation in order
not to prejudice any findings of the
investigation, possible charges that could
be laid, or any conviction of an offender.
However, the crime will normally be
identified as a homicide once there is
sufficient evidence to indicate that a
homicide is the more likely crime than any
other.
Legal Analysis of homicide
To repeat, at common law homicide is
defined as the unlawful killing of a human
person with malice aforethought. Malice
aforethought exists if the defendant acts
with any of the following states of mind:
(i) Intent to kill; (ii) Intent to inflict
serious bodily harm; (iii) Reckless
indifference to an unjustifiably high risk
to human life (abandoned and malignant
heart); or (iv) Intent to commit a felony
(felony-homicide doctrine).
Under element (i) intent to kill, the
deadly weapon rule applies. Thus, if the
defendant intentionally uses a deadly
weapon or instrument against the victim,
such use authorizes a permissive inference
of intent to kill. An example of a deadly
weapon or instrument is a gun, a knife, or
even a car when intentionally used to
strike the victim.
Under element (iii) abandoned and
malignant heart, the killing must result
from defendant's conduct involving a
reckless indifference to human life and a
conscious disregard of an unreasonable
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Under element (iv) felony-homicide
doctrine, the felony committed must be an
inherently dangerous felony, such as
burglary, arson, rape, robbery or
kidnapping. Importantly, the underlying
felony cannot be a lesser-included offense
such as assault, otherwise all homicides
would be homicide as all homicides are
felonies.
********************************
So if homicide is harming, killing a
person with intent or premediated what is
a person?
********************************
Defintion of person as defined in law,
wikipedia and webster dictionary....
The classical definition of a person is "a
human being regarded as an individual."[1]
In modern usage, the term "person" is
subject to dispute and re-interpretation
based on alternate definitions. This is
especially so for uses that are not
necessarily synonymous with the classical
definition of human or human being.
For example, in many jurisdictions a
corporation may be treated as a "person"
under the law. In the fields of
philosophy, theology, and bioethics, the
definition of 'person' may exclude human
beings who are incapable of certain kinds
of thought (such as embryos, fetuses with
incomplete brain development, or adult
humans lacking higher brain
functions).[2][3]
These alternative definitions of what
constitutes a "person" include a wide and
varying range of alternative defining
characteristics, some of which have
evolved historically, and continue to
shift with time and social context. Some
other characteristics used to define a
'person' include personal identity,[4]
self-awareness, individuality, and a sense
of self that persists through time. Other
views centre around the degree to which
properties such as agency (both human
agency and moral agency) and rights are
recognized and acknowledged in society or
enforcable by law. The recognition of
status as a person is known as personhood.
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sillyakchick
Supporter
Joined: 12 Apr 2007 Posts: 2685
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Posted: 01-05-08 14:10pm
I think it's this part:
"human being regarded as an individual"
A fetus is not an individual since it is a
part of another being. Also, your
definition even states that some human
forms do not meet the guidelines for
personhood. (think the brain dead and
z/e/f or a baby born with anencephaly)
Also, IMO you can't kill what is not yet
alive on its own
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3699 Location: Bliss
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Posted: 01-05-08 14:14pm
Wow, look who's back! Welcome back jess!
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diamondsz
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 3157 Location: , Candyland-Canada
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Posted: 01-05-08 14:20pm
hey you~! thanx I missed you guys~!
How are you?
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diamondsz
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 3157 Location: , Candyland-Canada
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Posted: 01-05-08 14:21pm
sillyakchick
wrote:
I think it's this part:
"human being regarded as an individual"
A fetus is not an individual since it is a
part of another being. Also, your
definition even states that some human
forms do not meet the guidelines for
personhood. (think the brain dead and
z/e/f or a baby born with anencephaly)
Also, IMO you can't kill what is not yet
alive on its own
Where've you been all this time (I'm
probably the minority who doesn't know)!?
Welcome back, though.
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sillyakchick
Supporter
Joined: 12 Apr 2007 Posts: 2685
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Posted: 01-05-08 15:43pm
diamondsz
wrote:
sillyakchick
wrote:
I think it's this part:
"human being regarded as an individual"
A fetus is not an individual since it is a
part of another being. Also, your
definition even states that some human
forms do not meet the guidelines for
personhood. (think the brain dead and
z/e/f or a baby born with anencephaly)
Also, IMO you can't kill what is not yet
alive on its own
I'm pro-choice hun I know
that~!
I understand that. I thought you were
asking for opinions. I was agreeing with
you.
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diamondsz
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 3157 Location: , Candyland-Canada
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Posted: 01-05-08 17:40pm
Kypros Im been dealing with my own
problems just got a hang on them and my
kids are driving me mad but besides that
nothing new, how are you?
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sed_grep_awk
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 9 Location: earth
Posted: 01-05-08 20:33pm
Honestly, I think there's a rather blurry
line when it comes to deciding what
does/doesn't qualify as homicide when it's
a fetus. For example, when a woman is
pregnant with a wanted baby, and she and
the fetus are attacked and killed, the
murderer can be charged with two counts of
homicide. Yet if a woman is pregnant with
an unwanted baby and she chooses to have
an abortion, it's not considered homicide.
That really doesn't make a lot of sense!
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msrosie
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 347 Location: Ontario, Canada
Thanks: 0
Thanked:1
Posted: 01-05-08 20:38pm
sed_grep_awk
wrote:
Honestly, I think there's a
rather blurry line when it comes to
deciding what does/doesn't qualify as
homicide when it's a fetus. For example,
when a woman is pregnant with a wanted
baby, and she and the fetus are attacked
and killed, the murderer can be charged
with two counts of homicide. Yet if a
woman is pregnant with an unwanted baby
and she chooses to have an abortion, it's
not considered homicide. That really
doesn't make a lot of
sense!
While I don't agree with a charge of
homicide (I think the charge should be for
a crime against the woman), I do
understand the rationale. It's like a pet
- you can have your pet euthanised for any
reason you want, but if someone kills it
against your will, it's a crime.
Kypros Im been dealing with
my own problems just got a hang on them
and my kids are driving me mad but besides
that nothing new, how are
you?
Yeah, I'm doing well I hope your
problems get sorted soon and your kids
start behaving . Keep up the good
work.
Kypros.
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diamondsz
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 3157 Location: , Candyland-Canada
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Thanked:98
Posted: 01-05-08 21:08pm
Terrible twos man horrible and got two of
them in that stage almost want to
cry......btw thanx for the welcome I didnt
even know I was missed lol
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sed_grep_awk
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 9 Location: earth
Posted: 01-06-08 13:16pm
msrosie
wrote:
sed_grep_awk
wrote:
Honestly, I think there's a
rather blurry line when it comes to
deciding what does/doesn't qualify as
homicide when it's a fetus. For example,
when a woman is pregnant with a wanted
baby, and she and the fetus are attacked
and killed, the murderer can be charged
with two counts of homicide. Yet if a
woman is pregnant with an unwanted baby
and she chooses to have an abortion, it's
not considered homicide. That really
doesn't make a lot of
sense!
While I don't agree with a charge of
homicide (I think the charge should be for
a crime against the woman), I do
understand the rationale. It's like a pet
- you can have your pet euthanised for any
reason you want, but if someone kills it
against your will, it's a
crime.
I *do* agree with a
charge of homicide in the case of a wanted
baby killed in utero. And, yep, I'm
pro-choice! I just see an unborn baby
as...well...an unborn baby.
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sillyakchick
Supporter
Joined: 12 Apr 2007 Posts: 2685
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Thanked:0
Posted: 01-06-08 13:42pm
diamondsz
wrote:
Terrible twos man horrible
Oh dear, I have one as well. I completely
sympathize!
Honestly, I think there's a
rather blurry line when it comes to
deciding what does/doesn't qualify as
homicide when it's a fetus. For example,
when a woman is pregnant with a wanted
baby, and she and the fetus are attacked
and killed, the murderer can be charged
with two counts of homicide. Yet if a
woman is pregnant with an unwanted baby
and she chooses to have an abortion, it's
not considered homicide. That really
doesn't make a lot of
sense!
While I don't agree with a charge of
homicide (I think the charge should be for
a crime against the woman), I do
understand the rationale. It's like a pet
- you can have your pet euthanised for any
reason you want, but if someone kills it
against your will, it's a
crime.
I *do* agree with a
charge of homicide in the case of a wanted
baby killed in utero. And, yep, I'm
pro-choice! I just see an unborn baby
as...well...an unborn
baby.
I would disagree totally. There should
definitely be punishment, but not murdering a
foetus. That's proposterous and it is not
cohesive wih my pro-choice opinions and
views regarding the value of a foetus.
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sed_grep_awk
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 9 Location: earth
Posted: 01-06-08 15:53pm
I don't--I mean I DEFINITELY don't!--want
to start sounding like an anti-choicer,
but the fact of the matter is that a
late-term fetus is a human baby that just
hasn't come out yet. And I think killing
it should be a crime. That's all. My
grandchild was just born two days ago, and
he had to be delivered a week early due to
complications; he came in at over 9
pounds, and he was definitely a baby
BEFORE the doctor pulled him out! And I'd
like to think that if something had
happened to him prior to birth, he
would've been granted the same
considerations under the law that any
other person would.
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meblonde01
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2098 Location: ,
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Thanked:1
Posted: 01-06-08 16:01pm
sed_grep_awk
wrote:
I don't--I mean I DEFINITELY
don't!--want to start sounding like an
anti-choicer, but the fact of the matter
is that a late-term fetus is a human baby
that just hasn't come out yet. And I
think killing it should be a crime. That's
all. My grandchild was just born two days
ago, and he had to be delivered a week
early due to complications; he came in at
over 9 pounds, and he was definitely a
baby BEFORE the doctor pulled him out!
And I'd like to think that if something
had happened to him prior to birth, he
would've been granted the same
considerations under the law that any
other person would.
Me too.. I don't undersatnd why once it is
born it's NOT ok to kill it, but before it
is.. Doesn't make sense to me..
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yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Posted: 01-06-08 16:16pm
sillyakchick
wrote:
A fetus is not an individual since it is a
part of another being.
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