Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 663 Location: , Norn Iron
Vegetarianism debate! Posted: 01-30-08 09:13am
I would like to start a debate on the
topic of vegetarianism! I want to hear
other people’s views on the matter.
I am a vegetarian. I am not, however, a
vegetarian because I think eating meat is
wrong. If you look all around nature
animals are killing and eating one
another; you would not say a lion was
wrong for eating a gazelle! I think
humans are part of nature, life and death
is a cycle, and eating meat is natural.
What I am mostly opposed to are the
conditions in which animals are often
kept, and the ways in which they are
killed. If you raise your own chickens
for example, and you raise them well, and
kill them in the most humane way possible,
then I don’t really have a problem with
this. But almost any other times you buy
meat I think it is safe to say you have no
idea where that meat has come from, how
the animals were kept and how ethically
they were killed. In this instance, I do
not think it is right to buy that meat. I
do not think people should support animal
cruelty. The excuse “it is dead
anyway” is nonsense because it does not
work that way!!!! Meat is only put on
shelves because there is consumer demand
for it. if people did not buy that meat,
then people would not sell it. Full stop.
I’ve said that I think people are a part
of nature, but being part of nature
doesn’t necessarily mean one has to eat
meat. Lots of animals exist in nature and
eat only plants. The way I see it, it is
no longer necessary in most parts of the
world (and certainly in the western world)
to eat meat in order to survive. I have
never eaten meat in my life, so I am a
living testament to this!
Furthermore, I think the majority of
people if confronted with a cow, a chicken
or a pig and told to slit its throat,
bleed it, skin it, remove its entrails and
cut it up etc etc etc would be really
upset and would be unable to do it. But
these same people are perfectly happy to
walk into a supermarket and buy ready
cut/prepared meat in nice packets wrapped
in cellophane, where they never have to
confront the fact that they are in fact
eating something that was once alive and
most likely had to suffer for them. I
think this is hypocritical. Which is
another reason why I don’t eat meat. I
wouldn’t have the guts to kill an animal
myself so I am not prepared to eat meat
just cos someone else has had to do the
‘dirty work’ so to speak!
I suppose even moving away from the topic
of meat eating and speaking more
generally, the supermarket culture we have
now has meant people are getting more and
more detached from the reality of where
their food comes from. I watched a
documentary recently where a group of
schoolchildren were asked where their food
came from, and they didn’t know that
pork came from pigs or even more
strangely, they didn’t know that chicken
came from chickens!!! When asked where
beef came from they said “tesco”!
Anyway, moving on!
Are you vegetarian? What are your
reasons? Meat eaters join in too, what
are your thoughts?
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 01-30-08 10:56am
I am not vegetarian. I have considered it
may times, but because I too do not
consider eating meat to be wrong, so I
always have to come up with some other
reason for being vegetarian. There are
plenty of reasons, for sure... but in the
end, I like to eat meat and I'm going to
continue doing so.
However, I am conscientious about it. I
hate factory farming. If there was a way
to not eat factory farmed meat in a dorm
dining hall, I'd do it!! There's not, so I
am unfortunately still supporting it for
now by default. I have to eat you know.
As for the "killing your own", yeah I
could do it. No problem. It's the circle
of life. Bessie sure was cute, and tastes
great on the BBQ! I've killed a fish
(oooo) with my bare hands and a knife. I
went out, fished for it, caught it, killed
it, cooked it and ate it. One of the most
delicious things I have ever tasted, and
really satisfying in a visceral way!
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3939 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 121
Thanked:12
Posted: 01-30-08 10:58am
Eating meat is terribly unhealthy. That
and I am personally horrified by it.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 01-30-08 11:57am
Birch
wrote:
Eating meat is terribly
unhealthy.
Then why am I not an obese pig like the
rest of Americans?
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3939 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 121
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Posted: 01-30-08 13:07pm
That whole 'ignoring Birch' phase didn't
last very long.
Unhealthy does not immediately and
exclusively mean "obese".
|
fiona05
Supporter
Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 663 Location: , Norn Iron
Posted: 01-30-08 13:14pm
i don't think all meat is unhealthy...
poultry and fish are healthy. i think the
reason lots of meat is considered
unhealthy is because it comes in horrible
processed forms like chicken gougons or
bugers or sausages! i guess red meat is ok
as long as it isn't too fatty, is cooked
healthyily and is eaten, like everything
else, in moderation.
but yeah, whilst being fat is unhealthy,
being skinny does not always equal
healthy!
what do you mean dorm room, Eiri, are you
in boarding or something? and is there no
veggie stuff there?
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3939 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 121
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Posted: 01-30-08 13:30pm
You're right, fiona, I should have been
more specific and stated that meat to me
does not include fish.
Do you know about the fairly recent
discoveries on what exactly is in beef
(including many hormones)? It is
interesting to note that rates of cancer,
heart disease, etc have risen since the
rise of fast food restaurants in America
and the concurrent increase in cattle
production/products.
I think that cattle produced from certain
socioenvironmentally conscience facilities
in extreme moderation is fine. Expensive
as hell, though.
Oh, don't anyone get me wrong; I know a
good medium rare steak is a fabulous
treat. I used to eat it when I was
younger and not so well read on American
health statisitics.
No one dies from "elderly disease".
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fiona05
Supporter
Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 663 Location: , Norn Iron
Posted: 01-30-08 13:41pm
Birch
wrote:
You're right, fiona, I
should have been more specific and stated
that meat to me does not include fish.
Do you know about the fairly recent
discoveries on what exactly is in beef
(including many hormones)? It is
interesting to note that rates of cancer,
heart disease, etc have risen since the
rise of fast food restaurants in America
and the concurrent increase in cattle
production/products.
I think that cattle produced from certain
socioenvironmentally conscience facilities
in extreme moderation is fine. Expensive
as hell, though.
Oh, don't anyone get me wrong; I know a
good medium rare steak is a fabulous
treat. I used to eat it when I was
younger and not so well read on American
health statisitics.
No one dies from "elderly disease".
it's all about how you choose your food i
suppose. people automatically assume
vegetarians must be really healthy, but i
know vegetarians who have really awful
diets. ready meals, pasta and cheese every
day, never a vegetable in sight! my
boyfriend has converted to vegetarianism
in the last year or so and all he ever
eats is cheese on toast. i really need to
give him a kick up the arse, or he'll be
dead before he's 30.
how long have you been veggie for, birch
and what are your reasons?
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3939 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 121
Thanked:12
Posted: 01-30-08 15:31pm
Health and ethics are my reasons. I've
been fluxuating from complete veganism to
no red meat to just fish to just fish and
poultry only at holidays (and therefore
cooked by someone else) and I have kind of
settled there for the moment. This has
been occurring throughout my adult life
when I finally got control over my diet!
(versus parents doing it). I dunno,
what's that, 11 years?
I also do not consume dairy en masse.
Some ice cream occasionally and goodness I
love cheese, but I've read too much about
dairy cattle and what dairy does to your
system to eat alot of it. I'm not
perfect, though; I do slip and I think
that's okay. I wouldn't want to live with
a chocolate ban.
Yeah, I know some vegetarians who really
are 'sedentarians' and eat like flies
(garbage). Doesn't your bf's diet really
tell on his health? Is he sick alot or
anything?
I'm pretty healthy and happy. Got all
kinds of blood work done this summer and
everything is in better than good shape!
Sorry if that's TMI, just thought I'd
share.
|
sillyakchick
Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2007 Posts: 2690
Thanks: 4
Thanked:0
Posted: 01-30-08 16:03pm
I have heard the argument that we were
meant to eat meat because of the teeth we
have and that cave men ate meat, thus it's
only natural for us to do so. Here is my
response to that. Cave Men did not have
to worry too much about dying from heart
disease, clogged arteries, stroke, and the
like. Cave Man was usually eaten by
something. I believe the average life
expectance of our paleolithic brothers and
sisters was 35 years or something like
that. If we want to live a healthy and
ative life into olld age, meat should be
avoided. That is not to say that your
birthday steak dinner will kill you. But
it is something best eaten in modest
amounts, if at all. Everywhere you look
you can see elderly folks with all sorts
of complications from high cholesterol,
heart disease, etc because most of the
elderly were brought up on meat and
potatoes. Also, in the depression, you
are what you had.
Flash forward to now-we have the privilege
in our society to be able to obtain
complete nutrition without mass murdering
mammals to get there. What lucky folks we
are! As for my personal diet-I do eat
fish one or two times per week. I am able
to justify this by knowing that I would be
able to personally fish and kill and gur
and fillet a fish-something I don't think
I could stomach with a cow, deer, etc.
Maybe a chicken-If I raised it myself, but
I am not sure how I would feel about
myself afterward. Also, the factory farm
thing and the grisly manner in which
animals are slaughtered is disdainful and
I cannot eat something that was treated in
such a manner.
I cook everything my family eats from
scratch including breads, pastas, etc. I
fish from the river in the summer. I
can't stand pre packaged food. It scares
me what they have to do to preserve it
long enough for me to eat it and the
carbon footprint most of our food makes
just contributes to greater problems. So
I eat locally when I can and I have a huge
garden in the summer.
By the way Birch-It's just about the most
beautiful place in the world-out here in
the summer. I think you should schedule
yourself a vacation. Amtrack from CHI to
DEN is about 200 bucks. And its a lovely
scenic venture.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 01-30-08 23:10pm
fiona05
wrote:
i don't think all meat is
unhealthy... poultry and fish are healthy.
i think the reason lots of meat is
considered unhealthy is because it comes
in horrible processed forms like chicken
gougons or bugers or sausages! i guess red
meat is ok as long as it isn't too fatty,
is cooked healthyily and is eaten, like
everything else, in moderation.
but yeah, whilst being fat is unhealthy,
being skinny does not always equal
healthy!
what do you mean dorm room, Eiri, are you
in boarding or something? and is there no
veggie stuff
there?
I'm at college. Yes, there are vegetarian
options, but as I am not vegetarian I
can't see a point in not eating meat when
I want to. I just had a delicious tofu
mushroom gravy thing the other day... and
with it I had some coconut breaded shrimp.
I want the source of the meat to be
humane.
It IS all about proportion and that's what
I was going to get to. Aside from the
occasional rare steak, I don't eat very
much meat in a setting. I am often around
the deck-of-cards size. I like other food
first. I sometimes go a whole day without
eating meat. Americans eat too much of it,
and that's their main problem.
|
Darkmoon
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 Dec 2007 Posts: 374 Location: ,
Thanks: 69
Thanked:43
Posted: 01-31-08 15:16pm
The only problem I've found with trying to
be a vegitarian is that I'm always the
minority and therefore it's hard to get
the nutrition I need when dining with
others. People try to push me into eating
meat and at family dinners I rarely walk
away satisfied because the veggie side
dish is all there is for me to eat (unless
I do the cooking and make a separate meal
for myself).
The biggest problem on all ends of the
spectrum is the lack of acceptance.
People want others to make the same diet
choices as they do and it leads to insults
and pressure. I've met people who are
equally bad about it whether they eat meat
or not. The hardcore vegetarians harass
meat eaters and the meat eaters insult
vegetarians.
There are moral issues involved for
vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians/etc. but
the truth is they aren't going to get
people to stop eating meat any more than
prolifers are going to get women to stop
aborting unwanted pregnancies.
|
sillyakchick
Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2007 Posts: 2690
Thanks: 4
Thanked:0
Posted: 01-31-08 15:23pm
My hapiness does not hinge on whether or
not people eat meat. All I want to do is
educate people so they can make an
informed decisioin about what they do.
|
meblonde01
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2121 Location: ,
Thanks: 6
Thanked:2
Posted: 01-31-08 18:43pm
sillyakchick
wrote:
I have heard the argument
that we were meant to eat meat because of
the teeth we have and that cave men ate
meat, thus it's only natural for us to do
so. Here is my response to that. Cave
Men did not have to worry too much about
dying from heart disease, clogged
arteries, stroke, and the like. Cave Man
was usually eaten by something. I believe
the average life expectance of our
paleolithic brothers and sisters was 35
years or something like that. If we want
to live a healthy and ative life into olld
age, meat should be avoided. That is not
to say that your birthday steak dinner
will kill you. But it is something best
eaten in modest amounts, if at all.
Everywhere you look you can see elderly
folks with all sorts of complications from
high cholesterol, heart disease, etc
because most of the elderly were brought
up on meat and potatoes. Also, in the
depression, you are what you had.
Flash forward to now-we have the privilege
in our society to be able to obtain
complete nutrition without mass murdering
mammals to get there. What lucky folks we
are! As for my personal diet-I do eat
fish one or two times per week. I am able
to justify this by knowing that I would be
able to personally fish and kill and gur
and fillet a fish-something I don't think
I could stomach with a cow, deer, etc.
Maybe a chicken-If I raised it myself, but
I am not sure how I would feel about
myself afterward. Also, the factory farm
thing and the grisly manner in which
animals are slaughtered is disdainful and
I cannot eat something that was treated in
such a manner.
I cook everything my family eats from
scratch including breads, pastas, etc. I
fish from the river in the summer. I
can't stand pre packaged food. It scares
me what they have to do to preserve it
long enough for me to eat it and the
carbon footprint most of our food makes
just contributes to greater problems. So
I eat locally when I can and I have a huge
garden in the summer.
Sillyakchick.. I admire you that takes a
lot of work.. I think you are a wonderful
caring person to take the time to do that
for your family and yourself..
By the way Birch-It's just about the most
beautiful place in the world-out here in
the summer. I think you should schedule
yourself a vacation. Amtrack from CHI to
DEN is about 200 bucks. And its a lovely
scenic
venture.
|
meblonde01
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2121 Location: ,
Thanks: 6
Thanked:2
Posted: 01-31-08 18:47pm
Do any of you that don’t eat meat and
eat healthy avoid other things that are a
risk or danger to your health? Like
reheating plastic bowls in the micro-wave?
Bottle water? Or do you even us micro
waves? I’m not saying it is wrong. I
just wonder to what degree you go with the
healthy living.. Birch? Sillakchick?
Anyone?
|
homerx
Supporter
Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 3019 Location: , USA
Thanks: 336
Thanked:1067
Posted: 01-31-08 19:22pm
I wanted to be a vegetarian and my doctor
told me I needed to keep eating meat for
various health reasons....weird I
know...plus I like burgers and
chicken....sorry...and I love fish....and
I microwave all the time and use
plastics,etc....God, I suck!
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3939 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 121
Thanked:12
Posted: 01-31-08 20:01pm
meblonde01
wrote:
Do any of you that don’t
eat meat and eat healthy avoid other
things that are a risk or danger to your
health? Like reheating plastic bowls in
the micro-wave? Bottle water? Or do you
even us micro waves? I’m not saying it
is wrong. I just wonder to what degree you
go with the healthy living.. Birch?
Sillakchick?
Anyone?
It's funny you say that about the
microwave; I just read an article on
heating up the plastic wrap material etc.
in there. Yee.
I use a microwave rarely. Because I suck
as a cook and sometimes don't get things
cooked all the way through I'll have to
zap it.
I'll drink bottled water only if I know
the source, and reuse the bottles. Never
city tap water! If you can, look up in
your city what is in the water supply. I
have been drinking only distilled water
from a reputable source for some time. We
have special arrangements for showers,
too.
I do alot; too much to really list here.
We even use environmentally friendly cat
litter: chicken feed. Try it; it clumps,
is waaaaay cheaper, and is odor reducing.
Breaks down much faster, too.
Oh, and I don't shop at Wal-Fart
|
meblonde01
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2121 Location: ,
Thanks: 6
Thanked:2
Posted: 01-31-08 20:07pm
Birchie,,I think there are Contamination
in reusing the bottles for bottle
water..?? not sure but I think so..
Plastic.
What shower together?? LOL I"m thinking
so..
|
meblonde01
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2121 Location: ,
Thanks: 6
Thanked:2
Posted: 01-31-08 20:16pm
sillyakchick
wrote:
I have heard the argument
that we were meant to eat meat because of
the teeth we have and that cave men ate
meat, thus it's only natural for us to do
so. Here is my response to that. Cave
Men did not have to worry too much about
dying from heart disease, clogged
arteries, stroke, and the like. Cave Man
was usually eaten by something. I believe
the average life expectance of our
paleolithic brothers and sisters was 35
years or something like that. If we want
to live a healthy and ative life into olld
age, meat should be avoided. That is not
to say that your birthday steak dinner
will kill you. But it is something best
eaten in modest amounts, if at all.
Everywhere you look you can see elderly
folks with all sorts of complications from
high cholesterol, heart disease, etc
because most of the elderly were brought
up on meat and potatoes. Also, in the
depression, you are what you had.
Flash forward to now-we have the privilege
in our society to be able to obtain
complete nutrition without mass murdering
mammals to get there. What lucky folks we
are! As for my personal diet-I do eat
fish one or two times per week. I am able
to justify this by knowing that I would be
able to personally fish and kill and gur
and fillet a fish-something I don't think
I could stomach with a cow, deer, etc.
Maybe a chicken-If I raised it myself, but
I am not sure how I would feel about
myself afterward. Also, the factory farm
thing and the grisly manner in which
animals are slaughtered is disdainful and
I cannot eat something that was treated in
such a manner.
I cook everything my family eats from
scratch including breads, pastas, etc. I
fish from the river in the summer. I
can't stand pre packaged food. It scares
me what they have to do to preserve it
long enough for me to eat it and the
carbon footprint most of our food makes
just contributes to greater problems. So
I eat locally when I can and I have a huge
garden in the summer.
By the way Birch-It's just about the most
beautiful place in the world-out here in
the summer. I think you should schedule
yourself a vacation. Amtrack from CHI to
DEN is about 200 bucks. And its a lovely
scenic
venture.
I have to admire you. That takes a lot of
work to eat and cook like you do!. What a
woman.
|
Verizon-y
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 3291
Thanks: 1
Thanked:0
Posted: 02-01-08 08:06am
meblonde01
wrote:
Birchie,,I think there are
Contamination in reusing the bottles for
bottle water..?? not sure but I think so..
Plastic.