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Posted: 02-04-08 00:18am
Birch
wrote:
manuftw82
wrote:
Birch
wrote:
manuftw82
wrote:
I care because I believe
every person deserves a chance at
life.
So you want preferential decision making
capability in women's medical decisions?
I have nothing against your opinion. It's
all the peripherals one would have to
utilize to get their opinion made into the
law of the land for everyone.
Let's say that I'm going to start the
"Create the Babies" foundation. Every
woman must give birth at least twice in
their life. The will be raped if they
don't consent. I think this is best
because women want babies. It's in their
best interest. They don't truly become a
valued person unless they have a baby.
And babies are the best thing ever.
That's my opinion. So it becomes law, and
you are raped repeatedly because of my
opinion. I don't care what you want. I
don't care if raping you is harmful. My
opinion is best and in your best
interests. And look, you get a wonderful
baby out of the deal! Isn't that lovely?
That's exactly what the prolife
philosophy makes me feel like. It makes
my skin
crawl.
I don't get why people who don't want
babies have sex. That's what it is there
for.
And your argument really makes no sense to
me. No one is TELLING these women to go
out and have sex and get pregnant. You
have sex and you get pregnant IT'S NO
ONE'S FAULT BUT YOUR OWN (assuming you
weren't
raped).
I think you missed what I meant...
The point is that your opinions make me feel like
I'm raped over and over again. I'm
just telling you how your opinions make me
feel. I want you to understand where I am
coming from.
Your need to have preferential decision
making capabilty in my personal medical
decisions makes me feel like I am violated
over and over again. Does that make
sense?
Here's why I, a person who does not want
children, has sex. Maybe I can help you
understand...
I'm a 29 year old woman in a five year
committed relationship. Sex is a very
large part of intimacy, and I love this
man with all my heart and want to share
this special thing (sex) with him. Not
only do I value the spiritual connection
we share, but also the physical. He is
smokin' hot and I am a sexual creature. I
would not abstain from sex forever to
appease prolife individuals or because I
might get pregnant.
Does that help you to understand the
prochoice (or at least this prochoicer)
philosophy
better?
How do those opinions make you feel raped?
That makes NO sense to me at all. And no
that doesn't make me understand the view
of a prochoicer...Sex is to reproduce.
There are other ways of pleasure. that do
not induce pregnancies that are also
gratifying.
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Tylanas
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Posted: 02-04-08 00:20am
Sex is NOT "just to reproduce". Getting
that archaic idea out of
your head is the first step.
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manuftw82
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Posted: 02-04-08 00:44am
Yes it is. Humans and Dolphins are the
only animals that have sex for pleasure.
soooo it's like a billion species against
two.
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Tylanas
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Posted: 02-04-08 00:56am
Wait, what? You just used the dolphin
example which is used by people proving
sex is NOT only for procreation and you
just tried to use it to say sex IS only
for procreation!?
*laughs hysterically*
So already, two species that YOU know of
do NOT have sex just for procreation, yet
you're trying to say it is? You're digging
a deep hole there honey.
Go learn about the bonobo monkeys. They
have a lot of non-procreational sex and
they do seem to rather enjoy themselves.
It's used to say "hi", to maintain social
order, and to express friendship.
What about gay sex in animals? That's
clearly NOT for procreation, right? Then
why do they do it? Well they must get
SOMETHING nice feeling out of it or they
wouldn't do it now would they?
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Darkmoon
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Posted: 02-04-08 01:31am
Don't forget masturbation in primates and
the otherwise gratuitous genital licking
that cats and dogs do. I mean
really...how clean does your crotch have
to get??
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Tylanas
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Posted: 02-04-08 01:41am
Hehehe. True. "Fido!! It's clean,
seriously STOP! We have visitors!!!"
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Jincks013
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Posted: 02-04-08 07:23am
manuftw82
wrote:
Yes it is. Humans and
Dolphins are the only animals that have
sex for pleasure. soooo it's like a
billion species against
two.
Which totally explains the 1500 species of
animals identified so far that have same
sex pairing; that is so conduscive to
procreation isn't it. We all know same sex
pairings get each other pregnant as fast
as opposite sex ones... where did you come
up with the bright idea that sex for
pleasure is not a natural phenominae?
Now here is a real challenge for you; what
do both dolphins and people have in common
that is vastly different from other
species of mammals on this planet?
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manuftw82
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Posted: 02-04-08 13:30pm
Well don't flame me for this but from what
I've been taught and from experience I
think that Homosexuality is a
psychological disorder. (This doesn't mean
I'm not supportive of them or w.e cause I
am.)
And other animals rely on instinct humans
do not.
I just don't see how someone can justify
murdering an innocent human being because
of their mistakes.
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Tylanas
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Posted: 02-04-08 13:50pm
Well you were taught wrong. That's all I'm
going to say. Even the Bible doesn't bash
homosexuality in the New Testament (old
test. doesn't count).
You don't rely on instincts? I do
sometimes. I don't process "oh I'm
tripping, I need to throw my arm to the
left and-" No, I just do what my body
instinctively wants to do. When you jump
at a loud noise, that "startle" effect is
an instinct to move because there might be
danger.
Think about this when you say "homicide an
innocent being because of their
mistakes":
A mentally handicapped person attacks me.
He or she may not realise what they are
doing, but if they have a knife in their
hand, I am going to do everything I need
to do in order to survive. If the other
person dies in the process, well yes
that's sad and all, but it's not blood on
my hands because I was the victim. It was
self-defense.
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manuftw82
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Posted: 02-04-08 14:35pm
I was not taught wrong thank you very
much. What was your major in college if
you went to college? What's your degree
in?
And no for the most part I don't rely on
instinct. Only a small part of our brain
is instinctual and that's the most
animalistic and primitive part.
And that's different because the mentally
handicapped person did something to you,
it's self defense. I don't believe in
abortion unless the mother's life is in
danger or in cases of rape and even then
its kind of like does the end justify the
means or the lesser of two evils.
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sistersister
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Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 145 Location: ,
Posted: 02-04-08 14:39pm
Add bonobos to the list. It would seem
that for recreational sex the females pair
up with each other and only during estrus
do they have sex with the males. The same
sex is used to form bonds that allow the
troop to work together to assure
survival.
" homicide an innocent being becuase of
their mistakes".
A ZEF is neither innocent or non innocent,
it has no ability to be either except in
the minds of those that wish to imply it
has more moral worth than the woman
carrying the pregnancy that supports it.
Whose mistakes??? Are you implying that
the ZEF is being aborted becuase of its
mistakes? Or our you simply assumeing the
woman that is carrying the unwanted
pregnancy has made mistakes? If it is the
woman what mistakes would those have been
that are so severe that she forfiets all
rights to her own body and life and must
become a slave to a ZEF she does not want,
is reduced to a brood animal for someone
else, is left physically or mentally
impaired from a pregnancy, or dies from
complications of a pregnancy she may have
desparately wanted but which has gone
wrong.
Well you were taught wrong.
That's all I'm going to say. Even the
Bible doesn't bash homosexuality in the
New Testament (old test. doesn't count).
You don't rely on instincts? I do
sometimes. I don't process "oh I'm
tripping, I need to throw my arm to the
left and-" No, I just do what my body
instinctively wants to do. When you jump
at a loud noise, that "startle" effect is
an instinct to move because there might be
danger.
Think about this when you say "homicide an
innocent being because of their
mistakes":
A mentally handicapped person attacks me.
He or she may not realise what they are
doing, but if they have a knife in their
hand, I am going to do everything I need
to do in order to survive. If the other
person dies in the process, well yes
that's sad and all, but it's not blood on
my hands because I was the victim. It was
self-defense.
Picking up on just one of your points, why
does the Old Testament (as a whole or in
reference to homosexuality?) not count?
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manuftw82
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Posted: 02-04-08 18:12pm
Oh and I never bashed homosexuality so
thanks for making assumptions about
something I didn't do.
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Lilly Ivy
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Posted: 02-04-08 19:50pm
First off, after reading on this debate
forum, I have finally figured out the
difference between pro-life and pro-choice
(never thought about it before). I have
come to realize that I am pro-choice.
IMO, homosexuality is a form of birth
control/population control in the wild.
Because we are intelligent enough to grow
food and distribute it to almost everyone
makes it seem there is no need for
population control. Homosexuality and
abortion are things humans have come to
realize DOES help with the population.
That's why I can't understand how woman
choose to bring a baby into the world if
they don't want to. Abortion is not for
everyone, why push it on them? Keeping the
baby, or even growing it and giving it up
for adoption, is not for everyone, why
push it on them?
Other than "I feel every person/baby
deserves a chance to live", I have never
heard another good reason for Pro-lifers.
It seems Pro-choicers have a lot more on
there side for argument sake.
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manuftw82
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Posted: 02-04-08 19:52pm
Lilly Ivy
wrote:
First off, after reading on
this debate forum, I have finally figured
out the difference between pro-life and
pro-choice (never thought about it
before). I have come to realize that I am
pro-choice.
IMO, homosexuality is a form of birth
control/population control in the wild.
Because we are intelligent enough to grow
food and distribute it to almost everyone
makes it seem there is no need for
population control. Homosexuality and
abortion are things humans have come to
realize DOES help with the population.
That's why I can't understand how woman
choose to bring a baby into the world if
they don't want to. Abortion is not for
everyone, why push it on them? Keeping the
baby, or even growing it and giving it up
for adoption, is not for everyone, why
push it on them?
Other than "I feel every person/baby
deserves a chance to live", I have never
heard another good reason for Pro-lifers.
It seems Pro-choicers have a lot more on
there side for argument
sake.
Then going with the Pro-choicers
assumption that every person does not
deserve a chance at life then I guess it
would also be okay to just kill anyone you
don't think deserves a shot to become
something.
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Tylanas
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Posted: 02-04-08 22:12pm
You have made the same fatal flaw that
every pro-lifer makes. I personally don't
believe the fetus is a person, so I would
never USE the phrase "every person does
not deserve life". People, to me, are
born. Every born person DOES deserve life,
and that is why homicide is wrong.
You can call the unborn anything you want.
I do not believe it has rights. Thus, I
would personally say "No UNBORN human has
a right to life."
Once it is born, it has ALL human,
inalienable rights.
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Lilly Ivy
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Posted: 02-04-08 23:26pm
I believe everyone should have a chance to
live, but only if the mother wants it to.
IMO, the 'baby' is part of the mother
until it is born, THEN it is another human
being. Obviously according to the law, no
one exists unless it's on paper, so how
can you consider it a human being if you
can't interact with it? and ultrasounds
don't count, it's like saying you interact
with people over the internet via
pictures, it doesn't work that way. AND
most abortions happen before you can even
feel it move.
Again, you still haven't given me another
point other than that one.
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manuftw82
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Posted: 02-04-08 23:55pm
Eiri
wrote:
You have made the same fatal
flaw that every pro-lifer makes. I
personally don't believe the fetus is a
person, so I would never USE the phrase
"every person does not deserve life".
People, to me, are born. Every born person
DOES deserve life, and that is why
homicide is wrong.
You can call the unborn anything you want.
I do not believe it has rights. Thus, I
would personally say "No UNBORN human has
a right to life."
Once it is born, it has ALL human,
inalienable
rights.
Then you have made the same fatal flaw
every pro-choicer makes.
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manuftw82
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Posted: 02-04-08 23:56pm
Lilly Ivy
wrote:
I believe everyone should
have a chance to live, but only if the
mother wants it to. IMO, the 'baby' is
part of the mother until it is born, THEN
it is another human being. Obviously
according to the law, no one exists unless
it's on paper, so how can you consider it
a human being if you can't interact with
it? and ultrasounds don't count, it's like
saying you interact with people over the
internet via pictures, it doesn't work
that way. AND most abortions happen before
you can even feel it move.
Again, you still haven't given me another
point other than that
one.
Just because you can't feel it move does
not mean a heart has started beating.
Most abortions are performed after a heart
has started beating.
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Darkmoon
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Posted: 02-05-08 00:17am
No born person has entitlement to getting
a "shot" at something (whether it be a job
promotion, breeding with another person or
even living for another year) that would
require using another person's body
against their will. Why should the unborn
get special treatment...especially
considering that unlike a fully sentient
born person (including the woman it
resides in) an unborn embryo has no
thoughts or fears concerning survival?
