Birch
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Posted: 02-05-08 20:16pm
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| manuftw82
wrote: | | And about the violated
thing..I'm sorry you feel that way but I
feel for the people who have no voice.
You are violating the people who cannot
speak for themselves. So why is it okay
for you to do to someone what you don't
want done to
yourself? |
Because it's inside my body.
Why is it okay for you to make my personal
medical decisions?
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manuftw82
Supporter
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Vestal/LI, NY USA
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Posted: 02-05-08 20:20pm
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| Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | And about the violated
thing..I'm sorry you feel that way but I
feel for the people who have no voice.
You are violating the people who cannot
speak for themselves. So why is it okay
for you to do to someone what you don't
want done to
yourself? |
Because it's inside my body.
Why is it okay for you to make my personal
medical
decisions? |
I'm not making a medical decision for you.
But why is it okay for you to harm
another human being so that you may live
as you please?
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
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Posted: 02-05-08 20:32pm
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You're basically saying that no one has
the right to control their own body and
that no one has the right to defend
themselves.
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 3962
Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 02-05-08 21:25pm
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| manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | And about the violated
thing..I'm sorry you feel that way but I
feel for the people who have no voice.
You are violating the people who cannot
speak for themselves. So why is it okay
for you to do to someone what you don't
want done to
yourself? |
Because it's inside my body.
Why is it okay for you to make my personal
medical
decisions? |
I'm not making a medical decision for you.
But why is it okay for you to harm
another human being so that you may live
as you
please? |
I'm sorry, I've assumed that part of your
philosophy on being prolife means desiring
legislation against elective abortions.
Is that right?
As for your second statement, it is okay
for me to kill another human being (if
that's what you wish to call it, I care
not) because it is inside my body and I
have the right to self-determination and
autonomy in making my personal medical
decisions. If you have anything, you have
the right to say what happens under your
skin.
(Nod to Kypros for that article she
posted.)
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manuftw82
Supporter
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Vestal/LI, NY USA
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Posted: 02-05-08 21:26pm
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| Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | And about the violated
thing..I'm sorry you feel that way but I
feel for the people who have no voice.
You are violating the people who cannot
speak for themselves. So why is it okay
for you to do to someone what you don't
want done to
yourself? |
Because it's inside my body.
Why is it okay for you to make my personal
medical
decisions? |
I'm not making a medical decision for you.
But why is it okay for you to harm
another human being so that you may live
as you
please? |
I'm sorry, I've assumed that part of your
philosophy on being prolife means desiring
legislation against elective abortions.
Is that right?
As for your second statement, it is okay
for me to kill another human being (if
that's what you wish to call it, I care
not) because it is inside my body and I
have the right to self-determination and
autonomy in making my personal medical
decisions. If you have anything, you have
the right to say what happens under your
skin.
(Nod to Kypros for that article she
posted.) |
But not under the skin of another human
being.
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 3962
Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 126
Thanked:12
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Posted: 02-05-08 21:29pm
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| manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | And about the violated
thing..I'm sorry you feel that way but I
feel for the people who have no voice.
You are violating the people who cannot
speak for themselves. So why is it okay
for you to do to someone what you don't
want done to
yourself? |
Because it's inside my body.
Why is it okay for you to make my personal
medical
decisions? |
I'm not making a medical decision for you.
But why is it okay for you to harm
another human being so that you may live
as you
please? |
I'm sorry, I've assumed that part of your
philosophy on being prolife means desiring
legislation against elective abortions.
Is that right?
As for your second statement, it is okay
for me to kill another human being (if
that's what you wish to call it, I care
not) because it is inside my body and I
have the right to self-determination and
autonomy in making my personal medical
decisions. If you have anything, you have
the right to say what happens under your
skin.
(Nod to Kypros for that article she
posted.) |
But not under the skin of another human
being. |
Are you for legislating against abortion?
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manuftw82
Supporter
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Vestal/LI, NY USA
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Posted: 02-05-08 21:30pm
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| Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | And about the violated
thing..I'm sorry you feel that way but I
feel for the people who have no voice.
You are violating the people who cannot
speak for themselves. So why is it okay
for you to do to someone what you don't
want done to
yourself? |
Because it's inside my body.
Why is it okay for you to make my personal
medical
decisions? |
I'm not making a medical decision for you.
But why is it okay for you to harm
another human being so that you may live
as you
please? |
I'm sorry, I've assumed that part of your
philosophy on being prolife means desiring
legislation against elective abortions.
Is that right?
As for your second statement, it is okay
for me to kill another human being (if
that's what you wish to call it, I care
not) because it is inside my body and I
have the right to self-determination and
autonomy in making my personal medical
decisions. If you have anything, you have
the right to say what happens under your
skin.
(Nod to Kypros for that article she
posted.) |
But not under the skin of another human
being. |
Are you for legislating against
abortion? |
Yes, except in cases of rape and where the
mothers life is in danger. I don't
personally think it's right in those cases
but I think it may be the lesser of two
evils.
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Jincks013
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1171
Location: ,
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Posted: 02-06-08 07:46am
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| manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | And about the violated
thing..I'm sorry you feel that way but I
feel for the people who have no voice.
You are violating the people who cannot
speak for themselves. So why is it okay
for you to do to someone what you don't
want done to
yourself? |
Because it's inside my body.
Why is it okay for you to make my personal
medical
decisions? |
I'm not making a medical decision for you.
But why is it okay for you to harm
another human being so that you may live
as you
please? |
No one is advocating harming another
human being. We are discussing abortion of
a zygote or embryo. Semantic manipulation
isn't going to win the day here.
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Snug
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 151
Location: In the jacuzzi, silly.
Thanks: 21
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Posted: 02-06-08 08:59am
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| manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | Are you for legislating
against
abortion? |
Yes, except in cases of rape and where the
mothers life is in danger. I don't personally think it's right
in those cases but I think it may be the
lesser of two
evils. |
I find it interesting that you would make
an exception for rape. After all, those
little zygotes and embryos and fetuses are
just innocent by-standers to the crime
that was committed. Why should a rape
victim have discretion over their lives
when other women don't have similar
decision-making power?
Also, your "I don't personally think it's
right" disclaimer sounds remarkably like
the "pro-life for me, pro-choice for
everyone else" crowd. 
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 3962
Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 126
Thanked:12
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Posted: 02-06-08 10:58am
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| manuftw82
wrote: | | Yes, except in cases of rape
and where the mothers life is in danger. I
don't personally think it's right in those
cases but I think it may be the lesser of
two evils. |
Then you are most certainly attempting to
make my personal medical decisions for me.
It is easy to dress it up with pretty
phrases like "I think everyone should have
a chance at life" but you are also
advocating for a dictatorship over my
body.
How would that make you feel? Would that
make you feel good? Is that right?
The rape exception shows an emphasis on
pregancy as punishment versus the emphasis
on fetal life. Be consistent in your
prolife beliefs. It's either about the
fetus, or about the method of it's
conception.
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 12985
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Thanked:0
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Posted: 02-06-08 13:23pm
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It's okay if you personally don't like
abortion. I'm personally not a huge fan
and I wish it didn't have to happen.
BUT - I realise that I do not have the
right to tell someone else what to do with
their body or the things inside of it,
even if those things are alive.
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manuftw82
Supporter
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Vestal/LI, NY USA
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Posted: 02-06-08 21:06pm
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| Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | Yes, except in cases of rape
and where the mothers life is in danger. I
don't personally think it's right in those
cases but I think it may be the lesser of
two evils. |
Then you are most certainly attempting to
make my personal medical decisions for me.
It is easy to dress it up with pretty
phrases like "I think everyone should have
a chance at life" but you are also
advocating for a dictatorship over my
body.
How would that make you feel? Would that
make you feel good? Is that right?
The rape exception shows an emphasis on
pregancy as punishment versus the emphasis
on fetal life. Be consistent in your
prolife beliefs. It's either about the
fetus, or about the method of it's
conception. |
No the rape thing isn't pregnancy as
punishment. I think that if someone is
raped then that baby could leave serious
psychological damage on them so much so
that they may harm themselves or the baby
or others. I am consistent.
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 3962
Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 126
Thanked:12
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Posted: 02-06-08 21:44pm
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| manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | Yes, except in cases of rape
and where the mothers life is in danger. I
don't personally think it's right in those
cases but I think it may be the lesser of
two evils. |
Then you are most certainly attempting to
make my personal medical decisions for me.
It is easy to dress it up with pretty
phrases like "I think everyone should have
a chance at life" but you are also
advocating for a dictatorship over my
body.
How would that make you feel? Would that
make you feel good? Is that right?
The rape exception shows an emphasis on
pregancy as punishment versus the emphasis
on fetal life. Be consistent in your
prolife beliefs. It's either about the
fetus, or about the method of it's
conception. |
No the rape thing isn't pregnancy as
punishment. I think that if someone is
raped then that baby could leave serious
psychological damage on them so much so
that they may harm themselves or the baby
or others. I am
consistent. |
You do not disagree that you are
attempting to make my personal medical
decisions for me? 
I appreciate your view on rape, and am
glad that you believe a forced pregnancy
from rape could cause serious problems. I
agree. I also believe that a forced
pregancy regardless of the conception can
cause serious problems as well.
I find it inconsistant because you have
now shifted your emphasis from "everyone
should have a chance at life" to "only
fetuses concevied by consensual sex
deserve a chance at life, not the ones
conceived by rape". You have thus decided
that the means of conception is the point
of contention; not the value of the fetus
itself.
In other words, you think women who 'asked
for it' by having consenual sex should be
forced to give birth, but women who were
raped shouldn't be forced to give birth.
It's about the woman, and your personal
ethics, not the baby.
Do you know what I'm saying? I'm not sure
I'm saying it well.
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Darkmoon
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 376
Location: ,
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Posted: 02-06-08 21:57pm
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| manuftw82
wrote: |
Actually I got a 100 on it soooooo..
and I refuse to read what you write until
you put it in Laymen's terms. I am not an
English major..I hate English and I refuse
to read something that I will likely
misunderstand. |
So you're admitting that you can't be
bothered to read important information
about a subject that you are debating
people on because simple English is too
difficult for you to comprehend? Am I
reading this right?
If this is the case, what makes you think
you're qualified to argue the removal of
female rights with any credibility if you
can't even be bothered to read or research
information pertaining to the right that
you want to rob the female gender of?
If you consider it an insult for people to
try and debate with you on an intelligent
level (aka using proper English and
providing definitions that you're too lazy
to read) then you have no place in a
debate of any sort, let alone such a
crucial one that involves half of the
human population's right to make their own
medical decisions.
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manuftw82
Supporter
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Vestal/LI, NY USA
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Posted: 02-07-08 00:01am
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| Darkmoon
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: |
Actually I got a 100 on it soooooo..
and I refuse to read what you write until
you put it in Laymen's terms. I am not an
English major..I hate English and I refuse
to read something that I will likely
misunderstand. |
So you're admitting that you can't be
bothered to read important information
about a subject that you are debating
people on because simple English is too
difficult for you to comprehend? Am I
reading this right?
If this is the case, what makes you think
you're qualified to argue the removal of
female rights with any credibility if you
can't even be bothered to read or research
information pertaining to the right that
you want to rob the female gender of?
If you consider it an insult for people to
try and debate with you on an intelligent
level (aka using proper English and
providing definitions that you're too lazy
to read) then you have no place in a
debate of any sort, let alone such a
crucial one that involves half of the
human population's right to make their own
medical
decisions. |
Um no I READ what she wrote and didn't
understand it. It was clear she was
trying to use larger sized words to sound
more intelligent and I can't be bothered
with hifalutin people.
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manuftw82
Supporter
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Vestal/LI, NY USA
Thanks: 7
Thanked:3
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Posted: 02-07-08 00:04am
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| Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | Birch
wrote: | | manuftw82
wrote: | | Yes, except in cases of rape
and where the mothers life is in danger. I
don't personally think it's right in those
cases but I think it may be the lesser of
two evils. |
Then you are most certainly attempting to
make my personal medical decisions for me.
It is easy to dress it up with pretty
phrases like "I think everyone should have
a chance at life" but you are also
advocating for a dictatorship over my
body.
How would that make you feel? Would that
make you feel good? Is that right?
The rape exception shows an emphasis on
pregancy as punishment versus the emphasis
on fetal life. Be consistent in your
prolife beliefs. It's either about the
fetus, or about the method of it's
conception. |
No the rape thing isn't pregnancy as
punishment. I think that if someone is
raped then that baby could leave serious
psychological damage on them so much so
that they may harm themselves or the baby
or others. I am
consistent. |
You do not disagree that you are
attempting to make my personal medical
decisions for me?
I appreciate your view on rape, and am
glad that you believe a forced pregnancy
from rape could cause serious problems. I
agree. I also believe that a forced
pregancy regardless of the conception can
cause serious problems as well.
I find it inconsistant because you have
now shifted your emphasis from "everyone
should have a chance at life" to "only
fetuses concevied by consensual sex
deserve a chance at life, not the ones
conceived by rape". You have thus decided
that the means of conception is the point
of contention; not the value of the fetus
itself.
In other words, you think women who 'asked
for it' by having consenual sex should be
forced to give birth, but women who were
raped shouldn't be forced to give birth.
It's about the woman, and your personal
ethics, not the baby.
Do you know what I'm saying? I'm not sure
I'm saying it
well. |
I know what your saying and I just think
if people are having sex then they should
know the possibilities and that if they
can not handle the responsibility of
carrying a child to term then maybe they
should rethink having sex.
And I really don't see it as making your
personal medical decisions for you because
your making a medical decision against the
baby which is almost the exact same thing
you claim I, as well as other prolife
people, are trying to do to you. I don't
know if I wrote that right but I hope you
understood it.
Either way I'm done with this because I
feel like I'm being attacked (not by you).
So I'm done with this subject.
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
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Posted: 02-07-08 00:50am
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People DO know the possibilities: They
know that they could get pregnant or
STD's. That doesn't mean they WANT or
CONSENT to these things!! I know if I get
in a car I could crash. That doesn't mean
I consent to crashing. I use the example
over and over again, but it's darn
accurate.
Why do you think that abortion is not
taking responsibility? I agree that if a
woman cannot handle the possibility that
she may become pregnant, she shouldn't
have sex. But if she is prepared to handle
an unwanted pregnancy - whether through
abortion, keeping it or adoption - then
full clits ahead!!
An abortion is a medical procedure. So,
making a law that makes a medical
procedure illegal means you are
controlling her personal medical
decisions. Pro-life may not realise or
want to admit to this, but it is how
pro-choice views the issue. Illegalizing
abortion is removing our rights to control
our bodies.
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Lilly Ivy
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 1527
Location: Moorefield, WV
Thanks: 46
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online
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Posted: 02-07-08 01:55am
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| Eiri
wrote: | | An abortion is a medical
procedure. So, making a law that makes a
medical procedure illegal means you are
controlling her personal medical
decisions. Pro-life may not realise or
want to admit to this, but it is how
pro-choice views the issue. Illegalizing
abortion is removing our rights to control
our bodies. |
Very well put!! 
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oopoopoop
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Mar 2004
Posts: 1251
Location: ,
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Posted: 02-07-08 07:39am
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| manuftw82
wrote: | | I don't get why people who
don't want babies have sex. That's what
it is there for.
|
Right there, I think, is the answer to the
question. Anti-choicers don't understand
sex. They do not understand or approve of
the idea that sex is pleasurable, fun and
delightful for its own sake. Nooooope. Sex
is only for making babies. If you don't
want to be pregnant, why on earth would
you have sex? This especially relates to
women, of course: women should only have
sex for the purpose of procreation. The
idea that women might actually enjoy sex
in all its lovely penetrative, squishy
loveliness is anathema. How horrible that
a woman might want sex instead of only
yearning for a sperm to fertilise her!
Newsflash! I have been wanting and having
and ENJOYING sex for close to 30 years.
And I have never ever once wanted a baby.
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killbill
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 394
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Posted: 02-07-08 08:56am
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I think there should be a language shift
from pro-life to anti-choice. Everyone
should be pro-life. People should be
pro-life and it is a word that has a lot
of positive connotations on the surface.
I think it confuses some people. I am
pro-life in the sense that I believe that
little life has a right to live and have a
chance. I don't believe in killing it for
convenience's sake. Having said that, I
don't think it is something we can
legistlate. I don't believe the state
should make that decision for a woman. I
personally, think it's wrong but I also
think it is wrong to take the decision
away from the mother because then you take
away her right to autonomy over her body.
There is no black and white here unless
you choose to take the position that
unborn fetuses are not human and have no
rights. It is a murky issue and people
will always disagree on it. Like freedom
of speech, I believe in it, but I believe
it should not be used to harm others, but
it will be used that way regardless. What
frightens me is when people start using
parasite to describe a human life. It
reminds me of the holocaust. The nazis
described the jews that way so they could
feel better about killing them. The truth
is, there are a million situations and
reasons why a million different women will
choose to abort and until you are standing
in that woman's shoes you can't make that
decision for her. My heart aches for
those unborn babies who are unwanted by
the one who would give them life, but
there are plenty of children already born
who are unwanted who could use some of the
attention for their plight. I see a young
girl on this forum who may not have the
perspective that others have on the
situation and who may benefit from some
information. She even seems like she
would maybe have a change of heart if
given the chance to see how complicated an
issue it is. You just have to retract the
claws long enough to educate rather than
attack. Give people a chance to save face
and they just might see things from a new
perspective.
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