Exactly another perfect example. You
actually think anything but perfection
should be avoided, killed, eliminated.
Take a deep breath; let it out slowly and
read what was actually written, not that I
didn't find your deliberate mislead
entertaining but no one said only the
perfect should survive.
I also noticed you didn't tell us how many
children with severe cases of trisonomy 21
you have adopted either. Why is that? Are
you perhaps simply making noise and saying
little? Do as I say not as I do?
Bankit
wrote:
Thats my point these
pro-choice threads actually are to the
point of saying who should have been
aborted.
Do you actually read anything? Just
curious. Pro-choice is about having the
ability to choose what to do with ones own
body and if needed make a choice to
gestate a severely deformed fetus or not.
Bankit
wrote:
Maybe you should have been
aborted Poopoo you sound like a miserable
sad little
human.
Ohhh the irony!! How pro-life of you not
to mention a spectacular personal attack.
Bankit
wrote:
Maybe we should pass a law
to abort every baby unless it passes
rigorous genetic testing mandated by
someone that calls themself poopoo.
pff
I love a good read in histronics.
Especially since you are the one
advocating that one not poopoo. Why do you
hate pregnancy so much?
Bankit
wrote:
Yes there are sick people in
the world
We can see that.
Bankit
wrote:
but does that mean we should
abort every baby.
No one said that but you. Again, why do
you hate pregnancy so much?
Bankit
wrote:
You are pretty out there
man.
And you are stable? Hate to break it to
you pal but thats not a majority opinion.
Bankit
wrote:
WHat Im saying is you guys
sound sooo pro-abortion, fanatical about
it really.
No they don't but this thing you have
about forced abortions and stringent
genetic testing makes me question your
motives.
Bankit
wrote:
Trying to convince people
how many more babies we should be killing
and how great it is. Maybe we should also
abort anything thats not Up to yours or
eiri's standard of "normal". Oh this one
doesnt have blue eyes, or kill this one
she will disappoint her mother one day,
kill this one he will get prostate cancer
someday, OOh this one is gonna be kinda
ugly lets throw it back and try for
another.
Maybe you should go back to second grade
and retake reading comprehension. This
whole little fit of histronics is amusing
but trying to reword things to suit
yourself and blatantly advertising the
fact you aren't really reading whats said
at all isn't really helping your arguement
at all.
Try to stick to the actual facts.
For once.
Bankit
wrote:
Since we are not quite there
yet on mapping dna maybe we could just
start with the living and Eiri you can be
the authority of whats normal and deserves
to live. Lets just go ahead and start with
all the specail classes and start gasing
the handicapped and mentally challanged.
We already determined they are a waste of
life. I mean we have to help them and take
care of them and they dont do caca for us.
They cant help make money and buy me
designer jeans so they should be put down.
Im sure your just a beam of sunshine in
your community
poopoo
Gets white coat, worlds smallest fiddle
and plays the boohoo song....
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 02-03-08 20:18pm
Heh, I didn't even bother reading Bankit's
post to be honest. I notice my name is in
there now.
I'm not the authority on what is normal.
Society and our very biology is what
measures that. Don't blame me for pointing
out the obvious.
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Verizon-y
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 3291
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Posted: 02-07-08 00:10am
Katrina, what is up with your mom? What
in the world is her imagined difference
between you and your sisters? Have you
ever pointed her behavior out to her?
|
Darkmoon
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 Dec 2007 Posts: 380 Location: ,
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Posted: 02-07-08 01:17am
Bankit
wrote:
Exactly another perfect example. You
actually think anything but perfection
should be avoided, killed, eliminated.
Thats my point these pro-choice threads
actually are to the point of saying who
should have been aborted. Maybe you should
have been aborted Poopoo you sound like a
miserable sad little human. Maybe we
should pass a law to abort every baby
unless it passes rigorous genetic testing
mandated by someone that calls themself
poopoo. pff
You are seeing pink elephants and whatever
else you wish to see, rather than what is
there. The post you were criticizing is
clearly a rebuttal to the classic "YOU
COULD BE ABORTING BEETHOVEN!" argument
that prolifers use.
Bankit
wrote:
Yes there are sick people in
the world but does that mean we should
abort every baby. You are pretty out
there man.
Actually I think you're the one who's "out
there". You're describing true
"proaborts" and not "prochoicers". We
aren't interested in every pregnancy being
aborted. We want women to have the choice
and resources to do whatever is best for
them in a pregnancy, and that includes
giving birth and keeping it or giving
birth and giving it up for adoption. Most
of us do not stigmatize single and teen
mothers, which is more than I can say for
the "prolife" side.
Bankit
wrote:
Since we are not quite there
yet on mapping dna maybe we could just
start with the living and Eiri you can be
the authority of whats normal and deserves
to live. Lets just go ahead and start with
all the specail classes and start gasing
the handicapped and mentally
challanged.
Or how about we (meaning YOU) just learn
to read and stop confusing female bodily
autonomy with the purposeful intent to
annihilate an entire race or handicapped
people based on a superiority complex?
I'll tell you what...how about you go out
and find a
black/hispanic/irish/russian/downs
syndrome/whatever woman who aborted
because she got pregnant on purpose and
aborted the pregnancy because she
gleefully wants to destroy her own
race/kind and then you might have some
f-ing credibility. You insult all women
everywhere and every non-"white" race and
disabled person with your incredibly
stupid comparison between females choosing
not to share their bodies and gun-toting
freaks putting fully sentient men, women
and children in chains and gas chambers.
Seek mental help and please learn some
respect and compassion, while you're at
it.
|
diamondsz
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Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 3173 Location: , Candyland-Canada
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Posted: 02-07-08 13:53pm
manuftw82
wrote:
futureshock
wrote:
I would absolutely abort. I
had the testing done when I was pregnant.
In my opinion, a downs syndrome child has
a cruel life, as do the parents. This is
my personal observation from knowing
families like this. The children always
ended up institutionalized as the parents
became to old and/or infirm to care for
them.
Really? Because I went to school with
kids with down syndrome because we have a
special program in my school and I know a
lot of people with down syndrome or
similar mental disabilities and they have
for the most part been able to live an
almost normal life. I don't know where
you live but I'm sorry for
that.
I used to hang out/volunteer my time with
an organization called Apico in Quebec, it
was a specialized program in Quebec as
well as my home town, anyways these kids
all had some type of disorder or diesease
the big one was downs syndrome..
There mentality is more regressed than
our, some of them are in their 30s and
still act like they are 12 fun
eh...actually it was when I was 12 I was
somewhat of a loner who like to play
(skip-bo of these kids) and they had the
same mentality as me. (I didn't have many
friends till about 14/15 but I considered
them my friends to say)
Out of 50+ people that I have met, there
were two people that I have met who lived
with their parents, if they werent in
group home (similar to foster care) but
run by educators kind of like an
instutuition. One of them is down from my
dads place ...
They were denied the quality of life
because theire parents denied them that,
is that fair?? Someone else made a
exceptionally good comment though, in
Quebec kids are placed on a waiting list,
onbe of my sisters friends is waiting for
a foster home (her mother abused her) but
shes still living with her mother (I WANT
TO SCREAM.) Barely anything left for the
people who actually need it or its
vice-versa messed up eh?
I offered this girl a place but her mother
has made a direct notice to me about
getting involved so you would derive this
girls quality of life because you care
about a potential...
I make an impact on people who are here
not potentials
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hotshot
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Dec 2007 Posts: 5 Location: rowlett, tx U.S.
Diagnosis of Down's Posted: 02-11-08 10:36am
It would depend on the extent or severity
of the defect. If i knew absolutely for
certain the child would be able to
function somewhat normally, then I would
not abort. But if the doctor told me that
my child would basically be a vegetable or
have a defect that is not condusive to
life then I guess I would. Why put a baby
in world where you'll eventually have to
institutionalize it. I have a friend who
is an epileptic, and she was on about 9
different anticonvulsants, she took about
6000 mg a day. Well her body could only
tolerate a toxic dosage. She was in her
late 20's and she found out that she was
pregnant. The doctor told her she would be
fine as long as she was on bedrest. Mind
you she was taking Tegretol, an
anticonvulsant proven harmful to a
developing fetus. Well needless to say she
found out the baby would be able to live
but not function. It would have to have
been institutionalized. So she decided to
abort. I am a Christian, but I believe
that there are extenuating circumstances
to everything. Everything's not black and
white, there's always a gray area. One
more thing! Just because your Pro-Choice
doesn't mean your not Pro-Life. Im not
sure there's even such a thing as being
Pro-Life.
|
killbill
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 398
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Posted: 02-11-08 13:21pm
Eiri, I have to ask. You say abnormal
isn't bad it's just abnormal and you want
your kid to be normal. If you knew it was
going to be an abnormal genius would you
abort? Just wondering if one kind of
abnormal is good and the other isn't.
Anyway. I wouldn't abort. I've known a
few Down's people and, while they can be a
handful for their caregivers and will have
a lot of challenges in life, as a mother,
I would be willing to help my child face
those challenges and have the best life
possible. My step-sister has a girl with
Down's and she is a delightful, sweet,
funny and loving person and the world is a
better place for having her in it. She
loves to sing and dance and is very
cuddly. She just doesn't get the
consequences of her actions so you have to
watch her closely to make sure she doesn't
do something dangerous to herself. In a
way, it's like having a child that will
never grow up. As for those who say they
don't want to be taking care of them when
they are 70, I understand that, but don't
they have a shorter life span? Just
asking. I'm not sure about that one. The
older I get, the more I think I will just
get my tubes tied when I reach a certain
age because the risk factor increases and
I don't want to be raising even a so
called "normal" child when I'm really old.
I could always adopt or foster an older
child if I couldn't have kids after a
certain age.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 02-11-08 15:24pm
What do you mean by an abnormal genius?
Like an idiot-savant? Or like a child
who is fully functional and happens to
pass college at age seven?
Personally, even if my child were that
smart, I would make them go to school and
have a normal life like every other kid.
Would I supplement their learning? Of
course! Being the smart kid in school is
very frustrating - I know because I AM
one.
I personally feel that a true genius would
have a much better chance at a happy life
where they could do things for themselves
and not have to be cared for as long as
they had a proper upbringing. Even
geniuses can have terrible lives if they
are forced too hard.
|
killbill
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 398
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Posted: 02-11-08 16:52pm
i just asked because you said calling
down's abnormal was the same as calling a
genius abnormal and you would want a
normal kid. or something along those
lines.
i guess i feel like you can't guarantee
what you're going to end up with. you
could have a kid with cerebral palsy or
with autism or something that you can't
detect before birth.
i think there is a potential in anyone to
make the world better, even if it's on a
very small scale. not pointing this at
anyone, just musing. i used to ride the
transit bus past a school where two girls
with down's would always get on. they
were always laughing and joking around
with each other and just being silly. one
girl would always take the other one's
boot off and she would get irritated and
tell her to put it back on then they would
laugh about it as she tried to get it back
on. they did this over and over
sometimes. they seemed like they were
enjoying life anyway.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 02-11-08 17:42pm
You can never guarantee but simple
statistics say you're most likely going to
end up with a normal child. That's why, if
my unborn child tested positive for downs,
I would very seriously consider aborting,
for the sake of any children I have at the
time and for the sake of my future
children.
|
meblonde01
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2123 Location: ,
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Posted: 02-11-08 17:55pm
At what stage of the pregnancy can they
tell? Does anyone know?
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 02-11-08 18:14pm
It's becoming sooner and sooner. I'm not
sure of the earliest test, but the amino
test still has to be done fairly late on,
and that's the only conclusive test I know
of because it's direct. However, earlier
observational tests that can be done with
an ultrasound are being used more often as
an early warning and are becoming very
accurate.
|
nightangel73
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 Posts: 2511 Location: ,
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Posted: 02-11-08 19:00pm
I don't know but I know the early
preliminary test is done quite early at
about 14 weeks. That's what I remember
from my friend..she tested positive but it
was false positive. Should she had aborted
due to this test result she would aborted
a normal baby. So it takes more time for a
conclusive test.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 02-11-08 21:16pm
Well exactly, that's why you have to wait
for the conclusive tests. But the early
ones allow you more time to think and to
plan.
|
Jincks013
Extremely EHEALTHy
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Posted: 02-11-08 21:33pm
Font SizeA A A « Previous1
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Amniocentesis Index Glossary
Amniocentesis (cont.)
In this ArticleWhat is amniocentesis?
Who is a candidate for amniocentesis?
What does amniocentesis show?
When should amniocentesis be performed? Is
amniocentesis safe? Amniocentesis At A
Glance Amniocentesis IndexWhen should
amniocentesis be performed?
For genetic testing, chromosome analysis,
and evaluation of an abnormal AFP test,
amniocentesis is usually performed between
the 15th and the 18th week of pregnancy.
Some physicians perform "early amnio" at
13 weeks or even sooner. There is a higher
rate of miscarriage associated with these
very early tests. However, early tests can
provide information sooner which may be
helpful to the parents. There is no time
limit as to how late in the pregnancy
amniocentesis can be performed.
If amniocentesis is performed to determine
fetal lung maturity, it is often done
anywhere between the 32nd and 36th week of
pregnancy. In diabetic women, lung
maturity testing may be done as late as
the 39th week, because poorly controlled
diabetes may delay fetal lung maturity.
|
yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
Re: Would you abort if the fetus had Downs? Posted: 02-12-08 14:38pm
krystineM
wrote:
Me being a teen, if i find out at 12 weeks
that my baby has down syndrom or other
disabilities, would abort, because yes i
do have money to support myself and my
child, but not if he or she has a
disability. It would be too much to
handle..I would abort and try
again.
Allow the baby to live, and see if the
diagnosis is correct. If it is (and
they're often wrong), and you cannot
adequately care for it, put it up for
adoption.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 02-12-08 18:37pm
The diagnosis is NOT "often wrong". They
wouldn't use those tests if they were
inaccurate.
"The first trimester screen now uses a
combination of the maternal age, the serum
quadruple screen, the serum marker PAPP-A,
and an ultrasound measurement of the back
of the neck of the fetus. When used
correctly, this first trimester screen has
a detection rate of approximately 95%
of all cases of Down syndrome, with a
false-positive rate of 5%."
http://www.ds-health.com/p
renatal.htm
And the prospects of a downs baby being
adopted seem dismal in my mind. How
disgusting is that? "I'm sorry. I gave
birth to you because a pro-lifer told me
to, but you were broken so I gave you
away." In my opinion, if you're purposely
going to give birth to a child that
according to testing has a very high
chance of being disabled, then YOU take
that responsibility onto yourself. Don't
shove it off onto society.
|
nightangel73
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 Posts: 2511 Location: ,
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online
Posted: 02-12-08 20:57pm
Eiri
wrote:
The diagnosis is NOT "often
wrong". They wouldn't use those tests if
they were inaccurate.
"The first trimester screen now uses a
combination of the maternal age, the serum
quadruple screen, the serum marker PAPP-A,
and an ultrasound measurement of the back
of the neck of the fetus. When used
correctly, this first trimester screen has
a detection rate of approximately 95%
of all cases of Down syndrome, with a
false-positive rate of 5%."
http://www.ds-health.com/p
renatal.htm
This is what they did to my friend and it
was false positive.
|
nightangel73
Extremely EHEALTHy
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Posted: 02-12-08 21:08pm
From the National Down Syndrome website
itself:
There are two types of tests for Down
syndrome that can be performed before your
baby is born: screening and diagnostic
tests. Prenatal screenings estimate the
chance of the fetus having Down syndrome.
These tests do not tell you for sure
whether your baby has Down syndrome; they
only provide a risk assessment. Diagnostic
tests, on the other hand, can provide a
definitive diagnosis with almost 100
percent accuracy.
There are two types of prenatal screening
tests available: maternal serum screening
and ultrasound (sonogram) screening.
Maternal serum screening tests measure
quantities of various substances in the
blood of the mother, including
alpha-fetoprotein and the hormones estriol
and human chorionic gonadotropin. Together
with a woman’s age, these are used to
estimate her chance of having a child with
Down syndrome. Typically offered between
15 and 20 weeks of gestation, maternal
serum screening tests are only able to
accurately detect about 60 percent of
fetuses with Down syndrome. Many women who
undergo these tests will be given
false-positive readings, and some will be
given false-negative readings.
The diagnostic procedures available for
prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome are
chorionic villus sampling (CVS),
amniocentesis and percutaneous umbilical
blood sampling (PUBS). These procedures,
which carry a small risk of miscarriage,
are about 98 to 99 percent accurate in the
detection of Down syndrome. Amniocentesis
is usually performed between 15 and 22
weeks of gestation, CVS between 9 and 14
weeks, and PUBS after 18 weeks.
|
nightangel73
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 Posts: 2511 Location: ,
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online
Posted: 02-12-08 21:28pm
I pray to God for those who think this
precious little angel is worth being
aborted.
