I couldn't agree more that weddings and
marriages are NOT the same. My partner's
brother and his "wife" never got married
either, yet they are very family oriented
and have three children and have been
together for over 10 years. Like my
partner, he doesn't believe marriage is
necessary but neither does the mother of
his children. We spend a lot of time with
both of our families and I am treated like
a sister in law no different than if we
were married. Even our mothers, who both
raised their children alone, know each
other and socialize together.
As far as it being better for children,
where we live there is common law
marriage, so it makes little difference
legally. My daughter has her father's
name and I wouldn't change mine if I
married anyway.
Marriage is important to me, but it
bothers me that people are implying that
my union with my partner is somehow less
than theirs because we are not married.
This isn't the 50's and you don't know us.
Maybe things are different in the states.
I know "y'all" can be a lot more
conservative when it comes to certain
things.
|
Verizon-y
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Posted: 02-26-08 16:49pm
Birch
wrote:
futureshock
wrote:
... They range from saying that
cohabitating couples break up at twice the
rate of marriages ending in divorce, to a
much higher percent of cohabitating
couples breaking up in comparison to
marriages
ending.
I'm really not being obtuse, really, , but do you
mean "lifetime commited" cohabitating
couples versus just cohabitating couples?
To clarify, I know many folks who
cohabitate to 'test the waters', and they
have not made a commitment.
OK, let's walk through this slowly. There
are people who live together and decide to
have children together who are not
married. If you ask them why they wanted
to have children before they were married,
they say being married isn't important.
Their relationship is just as solid and
will last just as long as any couple who
gets married before they have kids.
They are not testing the waters. They had
children together. They didn't have
children with the thought that their union
wasn't permanent. They think their union
is permanent.
I don't know how else to explain this.
This has nothing to do with the million of
boyfriend /girlfriend couples who move in
together every day of the week.
Go read the teen pregnancy, pregnancy, and
parenting boards. You will find that at
least half of the girls and women are
pregnant or have children and are not
married to their father's children. They
do not see the point in marriage. They
their relationship is the same as being
married.
|
lonestarguy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 590 Location: , Hoosierland, USA
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Posted: 02-26-08 17:08pm
Birch
wrote:
This isn't personal
lonestarguy; but I never know much of the
point of responding about this subject.
It's difficult to relate to someone else
the unique perspectives we have, as well
as the healthy relationship we have. I
can say that our relationship is unique
because we are unusual individuals but
then people jump to conclusions about
maturity and commitment. Which is fine
with me, because they do not know anyone
like us.
But I do love you very much and am going
to respond anyways. Plus, I don't like my
egg drop soup and need to while away my
lunch time.
lonestarguy
wrote:
That makes sense in your world, but what
do you have against being married legally?
If it's "just a piece of paper", then
what's the problem? If you are essentially
married in the eyes of the community, then
why wouldn't you? I was under the (perhaps
mistakenly) impression that all women grew
up dreaming of their wedding. Was that not
important to you
personally?
A wedding and a marriage, not to mention
weddings versus marriage
licenses/contractual obligations, are
different monsters.
A contractual obligation between two
parties to be together changes the dynamic
of a relationship. I would rather someone
make a choice to be with me everyday than
be signed, sealed, and delivered into it.
lonestarguy
wrote:
Is there something wrong
with a "real" commitment to you? I could
ask you the opposite question. Why would
you commit to someone for life if they are
not willing to put their word on the line
for you? Just as a point of reference,
when in your relation with Mr. X did you
mutually decide that you would be together
for the long
haul?
This is very interesting. It's kind of
exactly what I meant: my word is a
"real" commitment.
You did not answer my question.
I do not need someone to be willing to put
their word on the line, because that is
all about money and material possessions.
That signature does not protect anyone's
heart.
We mutually decided this over the course
of time. It was fairly early on.
lonestarguy
wrote:
You can't deny the fact that
two people who are not married, but
committed to a long-term relationship, can
walk away any time they want with no
entanglements. In fact, is a long-term
unmarried relationship considered by both
partners as a pact for life or just until
one or the other decides they have fallen
out of love? Do you have the level of
interaction and commitment with each
other's family? Because when you marry,
you really do marry the family also.
Yes, I don't deny that.
I would not want someone who were not in
love with me to be forced to be with me
because of a contractual obligation. That
is no way for me to live.
That's my choice; it's not for everyone.
We have as high an interactional level
with one another's family as any married
couple.
lonestarguy
wrote:
lWhat I think futureshock is
saying is that a pregnancy changes
everything, especially the dynamics of a
relationship. Is there still a stigma for
a child born out of wedlock today? Is that
fair to the child, especially when he or
she grows up? Or, are the feelings of the
parents more important than that of the
child?
As far as you and your partner are
concerned, I would personally say that you
should be married for the reasons I
stated. But, knowing you now and assuming
your bf is just as mature, then I would
not think less of you if you didn't. I am
able to argue a point without forcing my
views on others.
I agree with futureshock that it does seem
like younger partners, without your level
of maturity, are becoming pregnant and
then forcing a decision to be made whether
they are ready or not.
And, finally, I would also be interested
in the statistics of couples in your
position.
Toodle-loo!
I really agree that if kids are involved,
partners should be married for numerous
reasons beneficial to their children.
I know it's gone off tack; I just want to
reiterate my original post on here:
Marriage does not automatically mean that
someone is a good parent. Any loon can
sign a document.
I hope all that made sense. I wrote it
really
fast...
Yes, of course it makes sense. Most of
your posts do and they cut right to the
chase. Any person willing to "spar" with
you learns this. But, as we have danced
this dance before, I believe we both hold
valid views and it's time to put this one
back on the shelf.
Even though we can agree to disagree on
this subject, I usually agree with you on
most other topics.
"Marriage does not automatically mean that
someone is a good parent. Any loon can
sign a document."
No argument there. I mentioned marriage
only in the context of a child born to
unwed parents and the stigma which might
occur. Not that marriage qualifies a
person for parenthood.
I do respect your committed relationship
because of the uniqueness you explained. I
guess I'm just not getting the difference
in your mind between a wedding and the
marriage it symbolizes. Do you mean I
could have had a wedding without legally
marrying my wife Jamie? I'm not sure I
ever heard that before. Could it be I'm
just a guy and just never considered it
before?
Of course, I'm going to be very hurt if
you do have a wedding ceremony someday and
not invite me. You're not THAT far from
where we live.
See you in the movies.
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3939 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 02-26-08 17:14pm
lonestarguy
wrote:
Yes, of course it makes sense. Most of
your posts do and they cut right to the
chase. Any person willing to "spar" with
you learns this. But, as we have danced
this dance before, I believe we both hold
valid views and it's time to put this one
back on the shelf.
Even though we can agree to disagree on
this subject, I usually agree with you on
most other topics.
"Marriage does not automatically mean that
someone is a good parent. Any loon can
sign a document."
No argument there. I mentioned marriage
only in the context of a child born to
unwed parents and the stigma which might
occur. Not that marriage qualifies a
person for parenthood.
I do respect your committed relationship
because of the uniqueness you explained. I
guess I'm just not getting the difference
in your mind between a wedding and the
marriage it symbolizes. Do you mean I
could have had a wedding without legally
marrying my wife Jamie? I'm not sure I
ever heard that before. Could it be I'm
just a guy and just never considered it
before?
Of course, I'm going to be very hurt if
you do have a wedding ceremony someday and
not invite me. You're not THAT far from
where we live.
See you in the
movies.
Thanks for your nice words. We do a nice
cha-cha together with our fencing masks
on.
"Do you mean I could have had a wedding
without legally marrying my wife Jamie?"
Why not? It's your relationship.
I don't know what Jamie would think,
though!
"I guess I'm just not getting the
difference in your mind between a wedding
and the marriage it symbolizes."
Ah, I think see...we have a different
thing going on about the word "marriage".
I think of marriage as a descriptor for
the long term, as in, "My grandparent's
marriage" and you are using is as a
literal "marriage" between something,
like, "if I marry these two wires together
I can steal this car".
|
Roberta777
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 07 Jun 2007 Posts: 739 Location: ,
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Commitment Posted: 02-26-08 18:17pm
Is what this all comes down to.
Commitment and the realization that both
partners are secure in the fact they feel
safe. To me, marriage is a safe and warm
place. A secure place. I honestly
believe in the deepest place in our hearts
all of us want security.
Things may be different today, but, I
agree with Lonestarguy. Who of us, be it
young, in the middle of our lives, or
widowed or divorced, wouldn't like the
stability and safety of a committed
recognized union with somebody we love?
It seems to me that walking away is easy
enough for people who don't love each
other. There can be all kinds of reasons
that they start talking themselves into
why this isn't really working out for
them. Without the cold, hard fact that
you are indeed married to a person and yes
you better think long and hard about it
before you don't make the effort to make
it work out, then it is like a long date
gone bad.
Sure, marriages fail. I think a lot more
would work out if people were willing to
put in that extra mile. Families and
church groups are there to help people
when they go through their hard times.
The grass is never greener on the other
side. All people do is inherit new
problems. I know a new partner can look
good at the onset, but you only are buying
into new problems and have to deal with it
sooner or later.
When my husband died, I put my
granddaughter's new child as a member of
our family on the obituary. I honestly
didn't care about what anybody thought or
cared. She belongs to us and it is her
mother's choice to get married or not.
Just like it is everybody's choice to do
as they want with their lives. Nobody is
going to have the right to your life.
Same other way around.
|
lonestarguy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 590 Location: , Hoosierland, USA
Thanks: 10
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Posted: 02-26-08 19:54pm
Birchie:
Yes, I get it now. And I really wish you
and your guy a happy life forever.
I don't think Jamie would go for a wedding
without a legal marriage no matter whether
it was 32 years ago or tomorrow. You are
right about one thing, though. it's
everyone's right to live their life the
way they wish.
Roberta:
Well said. I couldn't describe it any
better than you did. Bravo!
|
Roberta777
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 07 Jun 2007 Posts: 739 Location: ,
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Thanks Posted: 02-26-08 21:15pm
Lonestarguy. I respect you a lot. Must
be out Midwestern upbringing. Am I right?
Please post a picture of your white dog.
Puppy or older?
I always love Futureshock's beautiful,
really regal dogs. Their faces tell a lot
about the environment they live in. They
are loved.
Bobbie
|
lonestarguy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 590 Location: , Hoosierland, USA
Thanks: 10
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Meet Duffy Posted: 02-26-08 21:51pm
Roberta777
wrote:
Lonestarguy. I respect you
a lot. Must be out Midwestern upbringing.
Am I right?
Please post a picture of your white dog.
Puppy or older?
I always love Futureshock's beautiful,
really regal dogs. Their faces tell a lot
about the environment they live in. They
are loved.
Bobbie
Here you go, Bobbie. Meet Duffy. He is
six.
BTW, I was born and raised in Texas
although we have lived in the midwest for
22 years.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Posted: 02-26-08 22:09pm
That's a very professional photo!! So
cute!!
|
lonestarguy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 590 Location: , Hoosierland, USA
Thanks: 10
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Posted: 02-26-08 23:36pm
Eiri
wrote:
That's a very professional
photo!! So
cute!!
Duffy thanks you and his human hosts are
just happy he lets us share his house.
|
Roberta777
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 07 Jun 2007 Posts: 739 Location: ,
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Now I understand Posted: 02-27-08 01:17am
why Duffy is more than kind and allows you
to sleep with him at the foot of your bed.
Well done!
I have to get me a little person to share
my life with. The cat is nice but just
too damaged to make that commitment. Will
keep trying. Just have to keep making an
effort.
Duffy, take care of Mommy and Daddy.
Love,
Bobbie
|
Verizon-y
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 3291
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Posted: 02-27-08 02:06am
killbill
wrote:
I couldn't agree more that
weddings and marriages are NOT the same.
My partner's brother and his "wife" never
got married either, yet they are very
family oriented and have three children
and have been together for over 10 years.
Like my partner, he doesn't believe
marriage is necessary but neither does the
mother of his children. We spend a lot of
time with both of our families and I am
treated like a sister in law no different
than if we were married. Even our
mothers, who both raised their children
alone, know each other and socialize
together.
As far as it being better for children,
where we live there is common law
marriage, so it makes little difference
legally. My daughter has her father's
name and I wouldn't change mine if I
married anyway.
Marriage is important to me, but it
bothers me that people are implying that
my union with my partner is somehow less
than theirs because we are not married.
This isn't the 50's and you don't know us.
Maybe things are different in the states.
I know "y'all" can be a lot more
conservative when it comes to certain
things.
In the U.S. your relationship would
definitely be considered "less" than that
of a married couple, which is exactly why
there is such a huge outcry among the gay
community for gay marriage.
Personally, I don't think any of this
matters if there are no children involved.
Once there are children, however, at
least in the U.S., it is better to be
married.
The types of people who don't "believe in"
marriage, don't feel they need a piece of
paper, etc., etc., are less committed
going into the relationship than people
who get legally married. That is just one
reason why so many more of these types of
couples break up than married couples.
Getting married does not force people to
stay together if they don't want to be
together. Divorce is legal. Unmarried
couples with children and property have to
go through a "divorce" as well when they
break up, because they have a lot of
things that need sorting out, like selling
the house, splitting the proceeds,
deciding on custody, etc. There is not
much they get shielded from, so there is
not really any good reason to avoid
marriage in the first place.
|
Verizon-y
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 3291
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Re: Commitment Posted: 02-27-08 02:11am
Roberta777
wrote:
When my husband died, I put my
granddaughter's new child as a member of
our family on the obituary. I honestly
didn't care about what anybody thought or
cared. She belongs to us and it is her
mother's choice to get married or not.
I don't get it. Why wouldn't you put your
granddaughter's new child as a member of
your family? And why do you refer to the
child as your granddaughter's child, and
not refer to the child as your
great-grandchild?
|
nightangel73
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Posted: 02-27-08 07:36am
killbill
wrote:
I couldn't agree more that
weddings and marriages are NOT the same.
My partner's brother and his "wife" never
got married either, yet they are very
family oriented and have three children
and have been together for over 10 years.
Like my partner, he doesn't believe
marriage is necessary but neither does the
mother of his children. We spend a lot of
time with both of our families and I am
treated like a sister in law no different
than if we were married. Even our
mothers, who both raised their children
alone, know each other and socialize
together.
As far as it being better for children,
where we live there is common law
marriage, so it makes little difference
legally. My daughter has her father's
name and I wouldn't change mine if I
married anyway.
Marriage is important to me, but it
bothers me that people are implying that
my union with my partner is somehow less
than theirs because we are not married.
This isn't the 50's and you don't know us.
Maybe things are different in the states.
I know "y'all" can be a lot more
conservative when it comes to certain
things.
Having a wedding is so wonderful. I had
mine 4 months ago and I can still daydream
about that day. I loved to wear the
wedding dress, walking down the aisle (and
have people crying with included my
husband) being so pretty and having such a
romantic spiritual ceremony and great
dance (I had a live salsa band to
celebrate) . ~sigh~ Such a memorable time
in life. What I don't understand is why
some women wouldn't want to go through
such a nice thing.
|
Verizon-y
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Posted: 02-27-08 08:00am
Most women do want to go through such a
nice thing, nightangel, and most people do
get married, in the U.S. at least.
Percentage of people who have ever been
married by the age of 55: Both males and
females: 95%
source
|
killbill
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 380
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Posted: 02-27-08 11:55am
Quote:
In the U.S. your
relationship would definitely be
considered "less" than that of a married
couple, which is exactly why there is such
a huge outcry among the gay community for
gay marriage.
Personally, I don't think any of this
matters if there are no children involved.
Once there are children, however, at
least in the U.S., it is better to be
married.
The types of people who don't "believe in"
marriage, don't feel they need a piece of
paper, etc., etc., are less committed
going into the relationship than people
who get legally married. That is just one
reason why so many more of these types of
couples break up than married
couples.
I don't live in the US so I don't care.
As far as types go; ie. age and
education, I assure you we are both
educated and old enough to make sound
decisions. Our daughter is very
intelligent and is being well raised. She
gets read to very often and is not
neglected in any way, shape or form.
Preach all you want, but there are
exceptions to any rule and deviations in
any statistic.
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3939 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 02-27-08 12:29pm
futureshock
wrote:
...
The types of people who don't "believe in"
marriage, don't feel they need a piece of
paper, etc., etc., are less committed
going into the relationship than people
who get legally married.
As you are a marvelous researcher, I'm
sure you can provide evidence of this.
(I think I'll be eating crow later. )
Last edited by Birch on 02-27-08 12:31pm; edited 1 time in total
|
Verizon-y
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 3291
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Posted: 02-27-08 12:31pm
killbill
wrote:
Quote:
In the U.S. your
relationship would definitely be
considered "less" than that of a married
couple, which is exactly why there is such
a huge outcry among the gay community for
gay marriage.
Personally, I don't think any of this
matters if there are no children involved.
Once there are children, however, at
least in the U.S., it is better to be
married.
The types of people who don't "believe in"
marriage, don't feel they need a piece of
paper, etc., etc., are less committed
going into the relationship than people
who get legally married. That is just one
reason why so many more of these types of
couples break up than married
couples.
I don't live in the US so I don't care.
As far as types go; ie. age and
education, I assure you we are both
educated and old enough to make sound
decisions. Our daughter is very
intelligent and is being well raised. She
gets read to very often and is not
neglected in any way, shape or form.
Preach all you want, but there are
exceptions to any rule and deviations in
any
statistic.
I'm not preaching to you, and the info I
am posting is not relevant to your
situation. You live in an entirely
different culture in this aspect.
About statistics, I don't recall posting
any statistic that said "100%". SO there
don't have to be exceptions since stats
aren't rules.
If a stat says "children do better in life
when their parents are married 75% of the
time", that means 25% of the time that
isn't the case. 25% of the time children
do better when their parents live together
without being married. So if you were in
the U.S. and the stats were relevant to
you, you would be in the 25%, right?
|
Verizon-y
Extremely EHEALTHy
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Posted: 02-27-08 12:39pm
Birch
wrote:
futureshock
wrote:
...
The types of people who don't "believe in"
marriage, don't feel they need a piece of
paper, etc., etc., are less committed
going into the relationship than people
who get legally married.
As you are a marvelous researcher, I'm
sure you can provide evidence of this.
(I think I'll be eating crow later.
)
I posted an entire thread about this here. Click
on the link in the original post to read
more info than what I posted in that
thread.
|
killbill
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
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Posted: 02-27-08 13:06pm
fair enough.
what really bothers me is when people
don't take time to get to know each other
before having sex/making babies. yeah, i
know people are going to call me a prude
and all that. i'm not saying people HAVE
to wait to have sex, i'm just saying it
bugs me when someone has a kid with
someone then breaks up or never really has
a relationship with them, then they constantly fight and
badmouth them. i feel like saying,
"you're the one that chose that person to
sleep with/have a child with, it's a
little too late to complain now." even my
mom did this when i was growing up. when
she would complain about me doing
something that reminded her of my dad i
would tell her "well lady, you picked him
not me." that would usually put an end to
that kind of talk.
i'm not talking about the usual once in a
while griping that most couples will do
about each other but the out and out
hatred and complete inability to be civil.
how do you go from being all amorous with
someone to hating their guts? i think
that is a situation where children really
suffer. if you have a child with someone,
it helps to know their faults first so you
aren't stuck with something you didn't
bargain for.
, but do you
mean "lifetime commited" cohabitating
couples versus just cohabitating couples?
