Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 173 Location: USA: NY & DC
Reason(s) For Abortion to Be Justified? Posted: 07-23-04 23:29pm
Can anyone list or explain concrete
reasons that justify abortion?
Note, the right to choose is not one of
them. We have the inherent right to
choose. You can choose to do many acts,
that is not what justifies them.
It is an act that unarguably kills human
life. So what justifies this action?
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2ferano
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 3717
Posted: 07-24-04 15:20pm
To save another life. To save your own
life. To save the fetus from a lifetime
of misery.
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where_is_the_line
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 173 Location: USA: NY & DC
Posted: 07-24-04 17:33pm
To save the mother's life if it is truly
in jeopardy, then yes. But you cannot
predict a life of misery. If you are
refering to disabilities or diseases, many
people lead productive, "successful" and
"happy" lives with some sort of sickness
or disability. And many "normal" or
healthy people lead "unsuccessful" or
"unhappy" lives. And I use the quotes
because those are relative terms. And not
all fetal prognosises are 100% accurate or
definitive. Sometimes they are merely
chances, possibilities, or odds. Of
course sometimes there is definitely
something seriously wrong. And if
abortion is justified by such a
circumstance, then it isn't even
necessary, save to spare the parents
"wasted" time, or even more distress.
Anyway, seems like a pretty small list
justifies abortion, and according to
statistics, people are having much more
abortions for much more different reasons.
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2ferano
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 3717
Posted: 07-24-04 19:05pm
When I said to save a child from a
lifetime of misery I was referring to
people who do not want kids. People who
will abuse, molest, neglect their children
and know it, so they choose an abortion
instead. And yes, I know that adoption
is also an option, but then you don't know
if the child is going to end up in a good
home or not. They can either spend their
whole lives being property of the state,
or be adopted by abusive parents.
Sometimes the pregnant woman decides that
an abortion is in her/the fetus' best
interest.
I am not saying this is what I think/feel,
I am saying this is another reason why it
is done.
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where_is_the_line
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 173 Location: USA: NY & DC
Posted: 07-24-04 21:25pm
There are many reasons, i'm only
interested in reasons that justify it.
Do you think that is a justifiable reason?
Nothing else is acceptable to me in
order to kill a living human being, there
must be a justified reason. I don't
think "well because they might not have a
good life" is a justifiable reason. I
don't see how killing them is better than
giving them a chance. There is no
guarantee either way how their life will
end up being for them. People who grow
up in the "best" environments can turn out
to be psychos who kill people, and people
who were abused sometimes go on to do much
good, you can never tell, and you can't
deny them their life because of the
uncertainty of their future. There is a
guarantee of no life whatsoever once you
kill them.
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purple333
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003 Posts: 1420 Location: Sydney
Meanings of Words!! Posted: 07-25-04 13:05pm
One persons concept of what justifies
something is totally different to another
persons.
So when you say "i'm only interested in
reasons that justify it" well that's all
very well if we all agree on what
constitutes justification but we won't we
probably all have different ideas of what
justifies any act including abortion.
Hence your question can not really be
answered to your satisfaction or anyone
else's really.
Your comment of: "i don't see how killing
them is better than giving them a chance."
is your opinion but it in no way negates
the right of others to hold a different
view all or part of the time, in some of
any circumstance.
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2ferano
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 3717
Posted: 07-25-04 16:58pm
Thank you purple. I personally would
much rather have a fetus aborted than
raped, molested and abused their whole
life as a human being. No one needs to
live like that.
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where_is_the_line
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 173 Location: USA: NY & DC
Posted: 07-25-04 20:52pm
Reply to hotasfrick: of course not, but
you cannot predict that, and they aren't
automatically destined to a life of that
and only that. And as the mother
deciding this, you're telling me you can't
prevent that scenario if that's what you
forsee and is the reason for killing your
child? And by that logic, any abused or
suffering human being should be legally
allowed to be killed, because no one needs
to live like that... Please, use better
logic, and again, I remind all, I concede
there are justified reasons for abortion,
but those are supported by better logic.
Reply to purple333:
then we should throw out the entire basis
of law then, shouldn't we? Why have
courts for anything? Maybe the person,
in their own mind, thought they were
justified.
Any answer would have been more satisfying
than your spin response. I'll refraise
the question just for you, and I still ask
everybody... In your opinion, what
justifies an abortion?
Everybody has a "right" to hold a
different belief or opinion. The
absolute truth does not negate that.
Infact, it is absolute truth everyone has
the right to hold a different belief or
opinion, unless of course, you have a
different opinion than that... Just
remember, everyone's entitled to their
opinion, but some opinions are better than
others, our opinion is only as good as the
facts that back it up.
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mp
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 25 Jul 2004 Posts: 7 Location: NL
Re: Reason(s) For Abortion to Be Justified? Posted: 07-25-04 22:54pm
where_is_the_line
wrote:
can anyone list or explain
concrete reasons that justify
abortion?
my opinion is that, next to important
medical reasons, an important reason to
have an abortion is when you've been
raped. (ofcourse, you shouldn't wait
months). Problem with this is: proove
and possible false accusations (i think
rapers should be castrated). Rapers
shoud not be awarded by getting
offspring.
If you're opinion is that abortion is
unarguably the same as killing, then in
your opinion an "egg-cell just joined with
a sperm-cell" is already a human? (i
wouldn't know how to draw a line other
then arbitrary... )
i think the words 'the right to choose'
themself are almost meaningless. There
should be very goods reasons when taking
an important 'choice' like an abortion.
Maybe little off-topic:
i think that, if you've voluntary have
intercourse, you should not abort just
because an 'accident' happened
(contraceptives tend to fail often!) and
"it doesn't fit right now...". Taking
the risk and abort if an accident happens,
is very rejectable in my opinion.
Again, education is needed. It's all
about prevention. Using contraceptives
is far too much being emphasized as the
solution. They are not reliable.
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2ferano
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 3717
Posted: 07-26-04 00:51am
Contraceptives are reliable if taken
correctly. Not 100%, but definately
worth taking if you do not want to become
pregnant. Condoms are also pretty
reliable and definately worth using. And
if an accident happens, then the morning
after pill can be used.
And line.....Please read my replies and
take them as they are written and do not
turn them around into your own words.
No, honestly, in my opinion, I would
rather have a woman who knows she will
abuse her child or that her lifestyle will
put the baby at risk to be molested, raped
or abused (and she is not willing to
change this) have an abortion. It would
have been better if she never got
pregnant, but if she would become pregnant
it is her decision to make.
And do not start the crap about any human
being who has been abused should be killed
then. That was one of samie's stupid
theories. A fetus is not a human being
and there is a huge difference between
killing a person and terminating a
pregnancy.
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where_is_the_line
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 173 Location: USA: NY & DC
Thanks Posted: 07-26-04 02:58am
I agree with most of what you said mp,
thanks for answering my original post
directly. I think that was the first.
I understand in a mother's distress after
a rape if she decides to have an abortion
after becoming pregnant (which is a rare
scenario, but does occur nonetheless) but
there are also cases of women who have
carried their pregnancy as a result of
rape to term. I think that is an
extremely tough but comendable decision.
I don't expect a woman to make that choice
easily tho, and I certainly can't fault
her for choosing otherwise. It's still a
horrific situation no matter what and no
woman should have to ever be exposed to
it.
I would definately advise contraceptives
if you don't desire children, but, if
you're voluntatrily having sex, especially
with a caring partner in a loving
relationship, I would hope that they'd be
prepared to accept a pregnancy if it were
to occur despite methods of birth
control.
Abortion is not "unarguably the same as
killing," it just plain is killing ...
For the simple fact that what is being
destroyed is alive, it is a living
organism, we may debate the exact nature
of it, but can one argue it is not alive?
It has a heart beat after the first few
weeks. We in part determine death by lack
of pulse. So surely the existence of one
must count towards something. And it's
not fully developed, but neither is a
baby, child, or teenager. They are all
stages of human life.
The human egg was fertilized by the human
sperm to create the existence of a unique
individual human being, with distinct dna
that can never be exactly replicated
again. So yes, it is already human at
that point, altho you may not consider it
a "person" it is unarguably human.
And as for the "line" ... Let me explain
my username ... It's not ok to kill a
child after birth according to our law.
But, also according to our law, it's ok to
kill the human being in the womb before
birth. Now i'm not sure exactly what the
limits are, but at what point during
pregnancy is it illegal to abort? And
why is it that point? And shouldn't
there be a point? So I simply ask "where
is the line?" ... Meaning abortion is a
very delicate balance because birth is
arbitrary in and of itself, it's aprox 9
months, but it's hardly exactly nine
months, and there are many prematurely
born babies who survive, especially with
today's technology. Life does not begin
at birth, because the living human
organism (call it what you want, it is at
the very least that) was alive since
conception (even if it's just as a tree is
alive, but it's much more than a tree even
at that stage to me) my point is at some
point before birth it must be wrong to
abort, with extremely few exceptions.
And fine most abortions take place in the
first trimester, but if it's wrong to
abort in the 2nd and/or 3rd, the 1st can't
be far behind... That's just me and my
thought process tho... Again there are
some justifications but I believe them to
be relatively rare. And if a line to you
is arbitary, and I don't disagree, then
doesn't that tell you something?
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mp
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 25 Jul 2004 Posts: 7 Location: NL
Posted: 07-27-04 22:10pm
@hostafrick:
as you already state, contraceptives are
not 100% reliable. Neither are morning
after pills. In my humble opinion, you
just shouldn't have intercourse if you're
planning to abort if all of the above
fails.
I think many many many girls have an
abortion because they rely way too much on
contraceptives and morning after pills.
Again, more education is needed. But if
morals are (in my personal view) too low,
they just take the chance anyway (over and
over again. Until...). Even then, they
can get in emotional trouble later if they
do abort.
@where_is_the_line:
1. I think that woman get pregnant more
often because of rape then you think. I
think hundred-of-thousands times each
year. And i'm not happy with the fact
that the bad genes of rapers are spread.
So I can't object at all if a woman aborts
in such a case.
2. Yes, it tells me you shouldn't abort,
if not one of the mentioned circumstances
is the case.
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2ferano
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 3717
Posted: 07-29-04 21:00pm
Well, just respect this site. Do not
type words that are not allowed.
Thanks.
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paperprofit
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 34
Posted: 07-31-04 08:27am
hotasfrick
wrote:
well, just respect this
site.
i do. But killing innocent children is
evil.
Last edited by paperprofit on 07-31-04 14:42pm; edited 1 time in total
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purple333
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003 Posts: 1420 Location: Sydney
Posted: 07-31-04 09:15am
So you think a woman should die giving
birth rather than abort a baby??
What world do you live in?? Not the same
one as me - I live in a world where a
woman has a right to choose to live or die
in order to give birth & a right to
choose not to give birth to a baby that
will die or have no quality of life &
a world where if she believs (in her
opinion given her situation - not yours
& not mione - hers!!) than abortion is
appropriate for her then it is &
should be her choice not yous & not
mine - hers!!
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paperprofit
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 34
Posted: 07-31-04 10:39am
purple333
wrote:
so you think a woman should
die giving birth rather than abort a
baby??
you don't have to cut up a baby to deliver
it.
Last edited by paperprofit on 07-31-04 14:41pm; edited 2 times in total
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2ferano
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 3717
Paperprofit Posted: 07-31-04 12:55pm
Stop typing words that are not allowed.
It is not permitted and you will be banned
from this site. Have some respect.
Also, your last post did not even make
sense. You did not answer the question.
If a woman is going to die giving birth,
she has every right to decide to abort
instead. Like it or not. And if the
mother and child are going to die anyway,
what in the world is wrong with her
aborting the fetus?
Welcome to the real world. Not
everything is black and white or pretty
freakin posies.
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paperprofit
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 34
Posted: 07-31-04 14:46pm
hotasfrick
wrote:
a fetus is not a human
being
it is if it's parents are.
You have a lot of nerve calling other
people's 'theories' stupid.
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purple333
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003 Posts: 1420 Location: Sydney
Paperprofit Get Real Posted: 08-01-04 09:23am
If by giving birth a woman would die (ever
heard of it - death during child birth!!)
are you seriously suggesting that that
woman should not have the right to choose
to live instead of having a child & in
the process dying herself??
If she did - that child could well still
die (after all if the mother's conditoin
is that serious it would affect the baby)
or be seriously mentally &/or
physically affected - regardless it would
have no mother (any other children in the
family would also be left without a
mother) - so you think that woman should
not have the right to decide whether she
risks her life or not - I think
not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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paperprofit
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 34
Posted: 08-01-04 10:28am
Purple,
you don't have to chop up a baby or suck
out it's brains to deliver it and save the
mother's life.
