Abortion Debate Forum - Pregnancy=consequence For Sex


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bd1012

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1998

Pregnancy=consequence For Sex Posted: 01-02-05 11:44am


If this is true than I guess evertyime somone has sex than they should adopt a child since they are now able to raise one since they are able to stick a stick inside a hole!! Maybe birth control should be banned since with birth control.. People are being able to have dirty dirty sex without getting pregnant and on top of that.. Take fertility drugs and we must ban people having sex during infertile times.. Remember.. Pregnancy must be a consequence to sex so I guess when we have sex without getting pregnant..We are unfairly cheating the system. Sex for infertile peopel will be banned... If they can't get pregnant.. Then they shouldn't have sex.. Or for everytime they have sex and don't conceive.. They must adopt a child. Does this sound stupid? This is what you are implying when you say pregnancy is a consequence of sex.

jenn_smithson

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 808
Location: Texas

Posted: 01-03-05 00:01am


I was kind of wondering something similar myself bd after some recent comments by more than pler. But why stop there. Since men also have dirty, nasty illicit sex, what should there consequence be? We couldn't in good conscience adopt children to single men when they fail to help produce a viable pregnancy every time they have sex. So, what are some consequences for the men and also for the women who fail to become pregnant (other than the adoption suggestion which logistically, I don't think could possibly work)? Since illicit sex is "wrong", what are some "consequences" that could be payed for these "crimes", "sins", "wrongs", etc.? Could we deny treatment for std's because those people consented to sex and likewise made mistakes? At one time in the american colonies, any kind of sex (except married sex) was actually against the law and could be punished under the law. These laws actually affected women much more than men because women are the only ones who can possibly manifest a physical symptom of "illicit" sex. However, at that same time, abortion was technically legal, usually performed by mid-wives and recipes for contraceptives and advertisements for contraceptive devices were widely traded among the women. So, while it was against the law to have sex, it didn't stop anyone from having sex. Threat or fear of pregnancy and/or std's have never stopped anyone from having sex, historically and currently. I'm with you. I don't understand this fascination with attempting to punish people for having sex.

sandyallen

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Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4580

Bd And Jenn Posted: 01-03-05 00:28am


I agree with both of you, lol. Sincerely, sandy

msrosie

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 351
Location: Ontario, Canada

Thanks: 1

Thanked:1

Posted: 01-03-05 10:39am


Seems to me like some antichoicers are bitter toward women who enjoy their sexuality. Perhaps they think we should only do it on sat. Night, on our back as our "wifely duty", and be planning next week's menus while hubby gets off. :roll: rosie

bd1012

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1998

Posted: 01-03-05 10:42am


Well you guys always imply it. "if you don't want kids you shouldn't have sex" and "pregnancy is a consequence for sex"... "stop being so irresponsible".. Tell me why you wouldn't use this logic for someone who did something stupid and ended up getting hurt? Would you deny medical treatment to someone who was playing with a pellet gun and ended up getting a pellet in the finger even though they checked it and it appeared unloaded? Hey.. They don't want to die.. Don't play with guns right? Death is a consequence for playing with fire arms isnt' it.. Even though they took precautions? Thank goodness the world doesn't follow that logic or I would've bled to death almost a year ago or would have died of lead poisoning.

jenn_smithson

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 808
Location: Texas

Posted: 01-03-05 17:42pm

jlee77 wrote:

i believe I already answered this. I enjoy sex and i'm pro-life so the above is childish to say.

it's not childish at all since this is the attitude we must contend with over and over again. "if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex" is all we ever hear. We don't hear anything about preventing pregnancy while still enjoying a healthy or active sex life and we also rarely hear pler's advocating masturbation, oral, or anal sex as a way to enjoy one's sexuality without getting pregnant. It is not plausible to tell consenting adults that they should "just say no" if they do not wish to be pregnant just as it is not plausible to tell people not to drive a car if they do not wish to be in an accident. Don't eat meat if you don't want to get a parasite, don't drink the water if you can't handle the mercury, don't examine knives if you don't want to get cut (my husband bought a new collectible and accidentally cut himself when he took it out of the box), etc. Your logic in this area does not make the slightest bit of sense when you realize that people have sex, have always had sex, and enjoy having sex.

Quote:

denying medical treatment someone who has been shot is no comparison.

it seems just as plausible as the pregnancy correllation.

Quote:

:roll: and yes bd...You got it! If your playing with a gun, it's a possibility getting shot. How do you prevent this? Don't play with guns. Duh! (shaking my head).

no, you prevent getting shot by a number of methods. You ensure that it is unloaded, that the safety is on, that you are pointing it toward the ground away from your foot, that you keep your finger off of the trigger, etc. There is more than one way (ie, "don't play with guns") to ensure that you will not get shot. Just as there is more than one way ensure that you will not get pregnant. "duh!" (shaking my head).

steen

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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Upper Midwest

Posted: 01-03-05 21:16pm

jlee77 wrote:

denying medical treatment someone who has been shot is no comparison.

wow, another jlee "because I say so" spewing.

Quote:

and yes bd...You got it! If your playing with a gun, it's a possibility getting shot. How do you prevent this? Don't play with guns. Duh! (shaking my head).

and if it happens, you want to deny them medical treatment to solve the unwanted outcome, right?

mom2trevor

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 01-03-05 23:41pm


Noone said that pregnancy was punishment for sex at any time....You all are being way too stupid about all of this. And even if you did see pregnancy as a punishment...Why is it fair then to punish the unborn? Where I am from condoms are handed out left and right to people who can't afford them. Why is it so hard to understand the concept of birth control? And if that birth control fails then why is it fair to punish the unborn for your actions?

mom2trevor

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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 01-03-05 23:49pm


So by what you all are implying we should convict the innocent and allow the criminal to go free? It's no more stupid then your ignorant pro-choice analogies.

jenn_smithson

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 808
Location: Texas

Posted: 01-04-05 02:55am

mom2trevor wrote:

noone said that pregnancy was punishment for sex at any time....

no, not in those explicit terms but it has been implied several times. You do know what implications are, don't you?

Quote:

you all are being way too *stupid* about all of this.

we are not the ones advocating telling people to "just say no if you don't want to get pregnant". We believe in more realistic approaches to stem unwanted/unplanned pregnancies.

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and even if you did see pregnancy as a punishment...Why is it fair then to punish the unborn?

why is fair to punish the pre-dead corpse (ie, the woman)?

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where I am from condoms are handed out left and right to people who can't afford them.

.Dam-! Where is that? I have got to move there or at least visit every two weeks.

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why is it so hard to understand the concept of birth control?

and this relates to the topic we were discussing how exactly? Do you contend that the majority of women who obtain abortions were simply "irresponsible" in the birth control department? Is that your belief?

Quote:

and if that birth control fails then why is it fair to punish the unborn for *your* actions?

so you *do* believe that pregnancy is a proper punishment for having sex (*implied* through your use of the words "punish" and "actions"). An abortion is not "punishing" the "unborn". The unborn are not cognitively aware of anything when the overwhelmingly vast majority of abortions are performed. Since they are not sentient, they cannot "feel", "understand", or "know" what is going on during the procedure nor are they aware of any "punishment" going on at all (for lack of a better word). Indeed, many infants are unaware of "punishments" for quite some time (with regards to the early learning processes).

Again, why do you feel it is appropriate to "punish" the woman? Why, in your views, is the fetus held above the woman? According to your wording, because the woman had sex (even if she was taking precautions), she should gestate the unplanned/unwanted pregnancy because the fetus is worth more than the actual woman. The woman's wishes, goals, feelings, etc., don't matter nearly half as much as the non-sentient fetus using the woman's body and resources possibly against her will. You're a woman?!? I don't think i've seen such misogyny from a woman before, incredible.

jenn_smithson

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 808
Location: Texas

Posted: 01-04-05 03:06am

mom2trevor wrote:

so by what you all are implying we should convict the *innocent* and allow the *criminal* to go free?

and who is this alleged "innocent" and "criminal"? Is the woman raped the "criminal" or the "innocent"? Is the 14 year old forced into an incestous relationship with her stepfather the "innocent" or the "criminal"? Even in a consenting, adult relationship; is the "crime" that must be "punished" having sex? And if that is the case, according to you, why do you only want to "punish" the woman? What about the man? What is his "punishment" for the "crime" of having sex? Also, I do not view the fetus as "innocent" at all. In fact, since it attaches itself to me and proceeds to suck resources from my body and organs especially if it does so against my wishes, I see it as being hostile and quite deviant. And, innocence is rather subjective in this subject because different people don't see the fetus as innocent at all. Some people do, some don't. Whose views do we honor then?

It would be so great to see the world in black and white, this and that, "good" and "evil". It would all be so much more simpler if I could see the world like this. I wonder if one of you would be so good as to give me lessons on seeing the world this way? Just once, i'd like to completely suspend reality and ignore all mitigating circumstances to pass judgement on other's and their circumstances and choices.

Quote:

it's no more stupid then your *ignorant* pro-choice analogies.

yes, when we run out of viable arguments, let's just resort to petty, childish name calling. Do you feel better about yourself now? Good. Glad you've gotten it out of your system.

mom2trevor

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 01-04-05 15:30pm


I said ignorant pro-choice analogies...Please show me where I resorted to name calling! So you view the zygote/embryo or fetus as deviant? That is sickening. That was really ignorant and notice I didnt' call you a name at all....Your claim to me was ignorant....So before you accuse me of things I haven't done..Please get your facts straight okay hun?

jenn_smithson

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 808
Location: Texas

Posted: 01-04-05 15:59pm

mom2trevor wrote:

it's no more stupid then your *ignorant* pro-choice analogies.

you said, specifically, that my pro-choice analogies are ignorant. Again, you have *implied* that I am ignorant. (after all, if I come up with ignorant analogies, then I must be...).

You have not answered any of my previous questions on why you feel it is acceptable to "punish" the woman at all costs? You also did not offer any possible "punishments" for the man involved.

Quote:

so you view the zygote/embryo or fetus as deviant? That is sickening.

did you not read the entire post? I did thoroughly explain this view and why I chose that word. Since the fetus may attach to me against my wishes and then proceeds to suck resources, energy, and fluids from my body and my organs, that is not "innocent" behavior. That is an invasive and unparralleled attack on my person. Pregnancy brings with it specific risks to my body. If the fetus had not attached, I would not be risking anything at all, would i? Therefore, I do not view the fetus as innocent and given its biological behavior, view it as parasitic and not welcome in my body at this time. I must be allowed to actively choose to welcome that kind of assault on my body. Just because I believe differently than you, does not mean that I am sick or "sickening".

Quote:

that was really *ignorant*

I have once again thoroughly explained how I believe what I believe. For someone who has gone through a pregnancy, I thought that you would certainly understand how other women can view the fetus as an invader.

Quote:

and notice I didnt' call you a name at all....Your claim to me was ignorant....So before you accuse me of things I haven't done..Please get your facts straight okay hun?

you have now implied that I am ignorant twice. I have explained to dispell this claim of ignorance. Pregnancy, even a relatively "normal" pregnancy, is not a magical, mystical, fun ride type of a time. Each pregnancy brings associated risks to the woman and her body and not one of you can deny that it is an awkward and uncomfortable position to be in. Is it any wonder then, that someone who does not want her body to be used against her will views the fetus as a parasitic invader?

Also, unless I have said something that is medically inaccurate, something which you can prove is wrong through unbiased, medically accurate, and trusted sites, then I have not posted anything "ignorant" at all. You would have been better simply posting "i disagree with you and this is why...". By saying that my claims, views, or opinions and beliefs are ignorant without providing the proper documentation is absolutely .I.M.P.L.Y.I.N.G that I am ignorant. Again, someone who offers ignorant comments must also be... And, in the future, do not patronize me. It is the one thing that I have no patience for.

sarahsweet

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Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 2485
Location: traverse city, michigan

Posted: 01-04-05 16:16pm


An unborn child is innocent. It is your fault if you get pregnant...And yes, the fetus is hooked up to you, depending on you, because that is what it is supposed to do, its not its fault. Its your fault.

bd1012

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1998

Posted: 01-04-05 16:28pm


Ug.. Sarah.. Why did you have to get into this.. I don't want to have problems between you and i.. Btw.. What if the woman was raped?

jenn_smithson

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 808
Location: Texas

Posted: 01-04-05 16:29pm

sarahsweet wrote:

an unborn child is innocent. It is your fault if you get pregnant...And yes, the fetus is hooked up to you, depending on you, because that is what it is supposed to do, its not its fault. Its your fault.

and you can gestate each and every one of your own pregnancies. I, however, will not and I will not be made to do so either simply based on your beliefs.

And, is it not also the man's fault? It does take two to tango so to speak. What is his "punishment"?

It's not your fault if you are taking the proper precautions and have the information necessary (some are uneducated about the process) and the precautions fail you. You were doing everything in your power to not become pregnant. The fault then lies with the faulty product. When a product fails, we don't sue the user of the product for using it, we sue the manufactureers of the product. In these cases, legal fault rests with the company producing the product, not the consumer. While you can't sue the birth control manufacturing companies because they state on the product that no method is 100% effective, the blame still does not rest with you. It is not your fault if you become pregnant unless you were actively seeking to become pregnant. Also, use of the word "fault" implies that some crime has taken place. Pray tell us what crime is it that you believe has taken place that must be payed for solely by the woman?

sarahsweet

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Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 2485
Location: traverse city, michigan

Posted: 01-04-05 16:48pm

bd1012 wrote:

ug.. Sarah.. Why did you have to get into this.. I don't want to have problems between you and i..

Btw.. What if the woman was raped?

its my opinion...Im not trying to fight, or cause problems, you can state your opinion, so why cant i?

bd1012

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1998

Posted: 01-04-05 16:54pm


Oh I know.. I'm not saying you shouldn't.. It's just that I get upset sometimes and sometimes politics is a real divider amonst people so it's better not to to talk about it with certain people..It's confusing to explain.

sarahsweet

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Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 2485
Location: traverse city, michigan

Posted: 01-04-05 16:54pm


I understand

steen

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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Upper Midwest

Posted: 01-04-05 17:45pm

mom2trevor wrote:

and even if you did see pregnancy as a punishment...Why is it fair then to punish the unborn?

it is no more punishment that punishing the person in kidney failure by not providing the bodily resource (in form of a kidney) that will keep him alive.