Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Posted: 01-20-05 20:13pm
fishx
wrote:
what I do think is wrong is
to terminate a pregnancy because of a
mistake why should one individual pay for
the mistakes of another.
but then, that doesn't
make sense to those who don't see the
embryo as an individual.
Quote:
tr>
the perfect
solution would be for every goverment to
issue free birth control through out the
world but alas we wo,nt get that
unfortunatly.
quite true, given the
massive opposition to birthcontrol that we
see within the prolife movement. After
all, the catholic branch, and most of the
fundamentalists believe that contraception
is bad.
This just in today. Consumer report has
a study of condoms in their february
issue. The report includes a rating on
the efficacy of 25 kinds of condoms, 17
birth control methods, a comparative guide
to contraceptives and abortion options
available in the u.S.
As a result, consumer reports is under
attack by anti-choice groups, with
threats to cancel memberships, urging
boycotts and contacting board members with
complaints.
Now, that is factual information, and you
should think that by people getting the
best condoms available, the need for
abortions would be less. But no, the
anti-choice fundies are all up in arms
now. How hypocritical.
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msrosie
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 369 Location: Ontario, Canada
Thanks: 12
Thanked:2
Posted: 01-21-05 10:27am
jlee77
wrote:
it's selfish to have kids?
Now that's a first. I have not heard
that argument yet. I don't see it that
way at all though. I guess if your one
of those woman having kids to get paid (by
the govt....Sadly there are some) then I
guess it can be said to be selfish.
Otherwise, nah. I see no selfishness in
it.
people have kids because they *want* to,
because they want to carry on their family
name etc., all selfish reasons.
Quote:
tr>
how am I selfish
rosie? I'm interested in knowing.....
:wink:
do you donate every cent to you make, less
basic living expenses, to charity? No?
How selfish of you.
Rosie
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FISHX
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 920 Location: UK
Posted: 01-21-05 10:43am
msrosie
wrote:
jlee77
wrote:
it's selfish to have kids?
Now that's a first. I have not heard
that argument yet. I don't see it that
way at all though. I guess if your one
of those woman having kids to get paid (by
the govt....Sadly there are some) then I
guess it can be said to be selfish.
Otherwise, nah. I see no selfishness in
it.
people have kids because they *want* to,
because they want to carry on their family
name etc., all selfish reasons.
Quote:
tr>
how am I selfish
rosie? I'm interested in knowing.....
:wink:
do you donate every cent to you make, less
basic living expenses, to charity? No?
How selfish of you.
Rosie
you can donate all the money you have to
charity and still be selfish.
There are lots of diffrent ways in which
to be selfish money is,nt everything
please note this is only an opinion.
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lil_blaze2004
Supporter
Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 6492 Location: ,
Thanks: 1
Thanked:0
Posted: 01-21-05 10:49am
msrosie
wrote:
jlee77
wrote:
it's selfish to have kids?
Now that's a first. I have not heard
that argument yet. I don't see it that
way at all though. I guess if your one
of those woman having kids to get paid (by
the govt....Sadly there are some) then I
guess it can be said to be selfish.
Otherwise, nah. I see no selfishness in
it.
people have kids because they *want* to,
because they want to carry on their family
name etc., all selfish reasons.
Quote:
tr>
how am I selfish
rosie? I'm interested in knowing.....
:wink:
do you donate every cent to you make, less
basic living expenses, to charity? No?
How selfish of you.
Rosie
i'm not having a child to carry on my
name. God I don't talk to my "father"
why would I want to carry on his name????
I'm having a child because I think it is
a beautiful experience to bring another
human being to life and give them a chance
for a great experience! And yes I "want"
my child, but that's not selfish that's
called .L.O.V.E. Big difference!
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bd1012
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 1998
Posted: 01-21-05 14:03pm
Yes.. Not giving every red cent you have
to charity so that you can live in a
heated home is selfish.. Understandably
so.. Hey we're all human, but still
selfish. We arent' saying that's a
character flaw.. But everytime you could
have done something for someone who was
without but instead do something for
yourself.. You're being selfish.
Again.. That doesn't mean you're a bad
person.. It just makes you a better
person if you do do that.
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lil_blaze2004
Supporter
Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 6492 Location: ,
Thanks: 1
Thanked:0
Posted: 01-21-05 14:26pm
Ok once again money does not =child.
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msrosie
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 369 Location: Ontario, Canada
Thanks: 12
Thanked:2
Posted: 01-21-05 16:17pm
jlee77
wrote:
and the giving all my money to charity
example, how old are you?
Nobody does that sweet thang. That would
leave no money for bills.
do you have a reading comprehension
problem? I said *less basic living
expenses*.
Like I said, *everyone* is selfish. It's
not necessarily a bad thing.
Rosie
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steen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Posted: 01-21-05 23:30pm
jlee77
wrote:
do you have a mental
problem?
jlee, you should stop
talking to the mirror.
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FISHX
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 920 Location: UK
Posted: 01-22-05 10:52am
steen
wrote:
jlee77
wrote:
do you have a mental
problem?
jlee, you should stop
talking to the
mirror.
you in that echo again steen
please note this is only an opinion.
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where_is_the_line
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 173 Location: USA: NY & DC
Posted: 01-24-05 00:24am
bd1012
wrote:
jeez.. Why do people think
that because we are prochoice, we hate
kids.. I don't hate kids I just want my
freakin rights.. Whether or not I do
have an abortion for an unplanned
pregnancy is irrelevant.. The choice
must be available. Hell, I might have a
kid one day down the road.. That's still
a big if though.. Really not sure on
that one.
you want your "rights" ... What gives one
the right to abortion? The fact that the
human life is inside of them and growing
within them? That their body is nuturing
them? I don't think those alone justify
abortion as a right.
The term unplanned pregnancy is slightly
ridiculous... Many couples become
pregnant in an "unplanned" way and
"choose" (i put in quotes b/c it's a
passive choice, meaning you don't have to
change anything, it's only a choice when
you want to kill the pregnancy) to keep
the pregnancy... And when couples are
having intercourse with the intention of
trying to create life that does not
guarantee a pregnancy will occur. My
point is the only true planned pregnancies
would be artificial fertilization methods
that guarantee pregnancy.
Why must the choice to abort be available?
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steen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Posted: 01-24-05 01:27am
where_is_the_line
wrote:
bd1012
wrote:
jeez.. Why do people
think that because we are prochoice, we
hate kids.. I don't hate kids I just
want my freakin rights.. Whether or not
I do have an abortion for an unplanned
pregnancy is irrelevant.. The choice
must be available. Hell, I might have
a kid one day down the road.. That's
still a big if though.. Really not sure
on that one.
you want your "rights"
... What gives one the right to
abortion?
the fact of roe ve wade
and that women has as much right to
control their bodily resources as does
anybody else. They are not second-class
citizens, and as such they can no more be
forced to give of their bodily resources
than can you.
Are you saying that you should be forced
to give your bodily resources against your
will if it meant that it would save
somebody else's life?
Quote:
tr>
the fact that
the human life is inside of them and
growing within them? That their body is
nuturing them? I don't think those alone
justify abortion as a
right.
but then, those points
are immaterial and irrelevant.
Quote:
tr>
the term
unplanned pregnancy is slightly
ridiculous...
nope.
Quote:
tr>
many couples
become pregnant in an "unplanned" way and
"choose" (i put in quotes b/c it's a
passive choice, meaning you don't have to
change anything, it's only a choice when
you want to kill the pregnancy) to keep
the
pregnancy...
that would be a pregnancy
that is unplanned but not unwanted. As
such, that also is completely irrelevant
to the issue of abortions.
Quote:
tr>
and when couples
are having intercourse with the intention
of trying to create life that does not
guarantee a pregnancy will
occur.
but if that pregnancy
occurs, then it assuredly was planned.
Quote:
tr>
my point is the
only true planned pregnancies would be
artificial fertilization methods that
guarantee
pregnancy.
and that is a point that
is rather irrelevant to anything on this
board.
Quote:
tr>
why must the
choice to abort be
available?
because the woman has the
same right to control her own body as does
any other person. Her right is assured
under the 9th and 14th amendment of the us
constitution.
|
where_is_the_line
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 173 Location: USA: NY & DC
Posted: 01-25-05 00:13am
Politically speaking, abortion is an issue
that involves competing rights. On the
one hand, you have the mother's right not
to be pregnant. On the other hand, you
have the baby's right not to be killed.
The question that must be answered is
this. Which right is more fundamental?
Which right has a greater claim? Abortion
advocates argue that outlawing abortion
would, in essence, elevate the rights of
the unborn over and above those of the
mother. "how can you make a fetus more
important than a grown woman?", they might
ask. In reality, outlawing abortion
wouldn't be giving unborn children more
rights, it would simply gain for them the
one most fundamental right that no one can
live without, the right to life.
If a baby is not to be aborted, then the
pregnant mother must remain pregnant.
This will also require of her sickness,
fatigue, reduced mobility, an enlarged
body, and a new wardrobe. Fortunately, it
is not a permanent condition. On the flip
side, for a pregnant woman not to be
pregnant, her child must be killed (unless
she is past her 21st week of pregnancy, in
which case the baby may well survive
outside the womb). Abortion costs the
unborn child his or her very life and it
is a thoroughly permanent condition. This
is what's at stake, both for the child and
for the mother. It is not an issue of who
is more important, but rather who has more
on the line.
|
where_is_the_line
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2004 Posts: 173 Location: USA: NY & DC
Posted: 01-25-05 00:16am
As it stands today, american women have
the legal right to obtain an abortion in
all 50 states, through all nine months of
pregnancy, for virtually any reason at
all. This has been true since january of
1973 when the supreme court declared that
autonomous abortion rights are built into
the constitution, and that any legal
barriers which prevent mothers from
aborting their children are
unconstitutional.
The opportunity to make such a sweeping
declaration came via two companion cases,
one from texas and the other from georgia.
The texas case, roe v. Wade involved a
pregnant, single woman, "roe", who was
suing the dallas county district attorney,
henry wade, to prevent him from enforcing
texas' abortion prohibition. The georgia
case, doe v. Bolton, involved a married
woman who wasn't pregnant, but was suing
on the hypothetical threat that pregnancy
would pose to her health.
Since the verdicts handed down from these
two suits become the legal framework for
abortion rights in the u.S., we are left
with a system that was not arrived at by
vote or by legistlation or by amendment or
through public debate. Abortion was
legalized through judicial decree, through
the decision of seven, non-elected supreme
court justices (who all happened to be
men). Overnight, unborn children lost all
protection under the law, and mother's
were granted the right to abort for any
reason they so desired.
Prior to this (as noted in the resulting
majority opinion), abortion laws were
decided on a state-by-state basis, and
most states made it "a crime to 'procure
an abortion,' ... Except with respect to
'an abortion procured or attempted by
medical advice for the purpose of saving
the life of the mother.'" in other words,
before 1973, the majority of states only
allowed for abortion if continued
pregnancy was going to kill the mother.
Therefore, the supreme court ruling on roe
and doe not only took abortion law out of
state hands, but it handed them a verdict
which was in direct opposition to almost
all prior abortion legislation.
How, then, could the court have ruled in
the matter it did? The peg on which the
entire verdict hangs is personhood.
Justice harry blackman stated in the
majority opinion of the roe decision that,
“if this suggestion of (fetal) personhood
is established, the [case in support of
legal abortion] collapses, for the fetus'
right to life would then be guaranteed
specifically by the (14th) amendment.” why
didn't the court see unborn embryos and
fetuses as having a claim to personhood?
Because the court, "at this point in the
development of man's knowledge," could
“not resolve the difficult question of
when life begins,” when “those trained in
the respective disciplines of medicine,
philosophy, and theology are unable to
arrive at any consensus.” the bottom line
according to the court: the unborn aren't
persons because we don't know if they're
human.
While this claim of, "we just don't know
when life begins," was demonstrably false
in 1973, it is even more nonsensical
today. We do know when life begins, and
it's time to do something, in the service
of love, to right what has been a massive
wrong. When laws victimize the weak and
the vulnerable (rather than protecting
them), it is time to change those laws.
|
Gero
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Posts: 44
Posted: 01-25-05 13:20pm
Give it a rest, steen. You are going to
have a tough time convincing prolife
people here that abortion is justifiable
no matter what excuse you throw out.
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BrianBaby
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 1383
Posted: 01-25-05 13:32pm
msrosie
wrote:
welcome.
If you don't like abortion, the solution
is simple - don't have one. However, I
see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I
do not see children in the same way you do
- and since I have no desire to have them,
I won't.
Rosie
if you like abortion, the solution is
simple - go kill a baby. However, I see
absoulte wrong with it. I see children
in a light that blesses the world and that
they are intended to be a gift from god.
Not having kids is your own choice, and
you should with all your means prevent
yourself from ever coming pregnant, that
way the hideous act of aboriton never has
to be committed.....I am 11 weeks 5 days
pregnant with my first child....Not
exactly what I planned since I am 18 and
still in school, but obvioulsy god has
something beautiful in store for me that I
can't begin to comprehend the reasonss of
why this happended..... :)
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Kourtney08
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 May 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Alaska
Posted: 01-25-05 13:35pm
I was 18 when I fell pregnant, im 19 now
with a 2 and a half month old. Im glad I
didn't get an abortion. But if a woman
chooses to get an abortion, its her body,
and her choice, and she shouldn't be
looked down upon for choosing to do
something thats none of anyones buisness.
So yes, babies are a gift from god and
bless the world. But what about the
mother? She was a baby, isn't she still a
blessing from god? Shouldn't she get to
choose what happens to her body without
being judged? I think so.
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BrianBaby
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 1383
Posted: 01-25-05 13:41pm
Nice to meet your kourtney!! It's nice
knowing that people are out there, who
have gone what your going through!!
Me~as an imperfect person cannot judge
others for there actions.....And yes god
still loves the women who has an abortion
just as dearly as he ever did.....As long
as they ask for forgivness and repent,
then any sin, can be forgiven......It
would just be a matter of ackowledging
"wrong" behavior! As I was saying, I as
a human cannot judge others, however it's
important for human beings to sometimes
"point out" other peoples mistakes if they
go unnoticed....Not judge, just sort of
call them out on it......Sometimes it's
not the womens choosing~it's higher than
that.....God has had a purpose for every
human being since the begining of time!!
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bd1012
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 1998
Posted: 01-25-05 13:53pm
I don't believe in god and I don't believe
abortion is wrong so I have no reason to
repent.
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Kourtney08
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 May 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Alaska
Posted: 01-25-05 13:59pm
Well see, it being "wrong" is merely a
matter of opinion. Pro-lifers think its
wrong, and pro-choicers think its okay. I
don't understand why people fight overt
his subject, pro-lifers arn't going to
change pro-choicers, choices, and
vise-versa. So i'll support a woman in
anything she does, unless shes harming her
self.
So you're pregnant? Are you married? Is
the dad still in the picture? Im just
asking because you're very christian-like,
and i'd figured you'd be married. If not,
thats cool too.
My babys father is still in the picture
and we're getting married next year. :)
kourtney
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BrianBaby
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 1383
Posted: 01-25-05 14:06pm
bd1012
wrote:
i don't believe in god and I
don't believe abortion is wrong so I have
no reason to
repent.