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steen

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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Upper Midwest

Posted: 01-20-05 20:13pm

fishx wrote:
what I do think is wrong is to terminate a pregnancy because of a mistake why should one individual pay for the mistakes of another.
but then, that doesn't make sense to those who don't see the embryo as an individual.
Quote:
the perfect solution would be for every goverment to issue free birth control through out the world but alas we wo,nt get that unfortunatly.
quite true, given the massive opposition to birthcontrol that we see within the prolife movement. After all, the catholic branch, and most of the fundamentalists believe that contraception is bad.

This just in today. Consumer report has a study of condoms in their february issue. The report includes a rating on the efficacy of 25 kinds of condoms, 17 birth control methods, a comparative guide to contraceptives and abortion options available in the u.S.

As a result, consumer reports is under attack by anti-choice groups, with
threats to cancel memberships, urging boycotts and contacting board members with complaints.

Now, that is factual information, and you should think that by people getting the best condoms available, the need for abortions would be less. But no, the anti-choice fundies are all up in arms now. How hypocritical.
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msrosie

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Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: 01-21-05 10:27am

jlee77 wrote:
it's selfish to have kids? Now that's a first. I have not heard that argument yet. I don't see it that way at all though. I guess if your one of those woman having kids to get paid (by the govt....Sadly there are some) then I guess it can be said to be selfish. Otherwise, nah. I see no selfishness in it.

people have kids because they *want* to, because they want to carry on their family name etc., all selfish reasons.


Quote:
how am I selfish rosie? I'm interested in knowing..... :wink:

do you donate every cent to you make, less basic living expenses, to charity? No? How selfish of you.

Rosie
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FISHX

Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 920
Location: UK

Posted: 01-21-05 10:43am

msrosie wrote:
jlee77 wrote:
it's selfish to have kids? Now that's a first. I have not heard that argument yet. I don't see it that way at all though. I guess if your one of those woman having kids to get paid (by the govt....Sadly there are some) then I guess it can be said to be selfish. Otherwise, nah. I see no selfishness in it.

people have kids because they *want* to, because they want to carry on their family name etc., all selfish reasons.



Quote:
how am I selfish rosie? I'm interested in knowing..... :wink:

do you donate every cent to you make, less basic living expenses, to charity? No? How selfish of you.


Rosie




you can donate all the money you have to charity and still be selfish.
There are lots of diffrent ways in which to be selfish money is,nt everything



please note this is only an opinion.
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lil_blaze2004

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Joined: 29 Oct 2004
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Posted: 01-21-05 10:49am

msrosie wrote:
jlee77 wrote:
it's selfish to have kids? Now that's a first. I have not heard that argument yet. I don't see it that way at all though. I guess if your one of those woman having kids to get paid (by the govt....Sadly there are some) then I guess it can be said to be selfish. Otherwise, nah. I see no selfishness in it.

people have kids because they *want* to, because they want to carry on their family name etc., all selfish reasons.



Quote:
how am I selfish rosie? I'm interested in knowing..... :wink:

do you donate every cent to you make, less basic living expenses, to charity? No? How selfish of you.


Rosie


i'm not having a child to carry on my name. God I don't talk to my "father" why would I want to carry on his name???? I'm having a child because I think it is a beautiful experience to bring another human being to life and give them a chance for a great experience! And yes I "want" my child, but that's not selfish that's called .L.O.V.E. Big difference!
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bd1012

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Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1998

Posted: 01-21-05 14:03pm

Yes.. Not giving every red cent you have to charity so that you can live in a heated home is selfish.. Understandably so.. Hey we're all human, but still selfish. We arent' saying that's a character flaw.. But everytime you could have done something for someone who was without but instead do something for yourself.. You're being selfish.

Again.. That doesn't mean you're a bad person.. It just makes you a better person if you do do that.
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lil_blaze2004

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Posted: 01-21-05 14:26pm

Ok once again money does not =child.
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msrosie

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Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: 01-21-05 16:17pm

jlee77 wrote:

and the giving all my money to charity example, how old are you?
Nobody does that sweet thang. That would leave no money for bills.

do you have a reading comprehension problem? I said *less basic living expenses*.

Like I said, *everyone* is selfish. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Rosie
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steen

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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Upper Midwest

Posted: 01-21-05 23:30pm

jlee77 wrote:
do you have a mental problem?
jlee, you should stop talking to the mirror.
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FISHX

Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 920
Location: UK

Posted: 01-22-05 10:52am

steen wrote:
jlee77 wrote:
do you have a mental problem?
jlee, you should stop talking to the mirror.



you in that echo again steen





please note this is only an opinion.
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where_is_the_line

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2004
Posts: 173
Location: USA: NY & DC

Posted: 01-24-05 00:24am

bd1012 wrote:
jeez.. Why do people think that because we are prochoice, we hate kids.. I don't hate kids I just want my freakin rights.. Whether or not I do have an abortion for an unplanned pregnancy is irrelevant.. The choice must be available. Hell, I might have a kid one day down the road.. That's still a big if though.. Really not sure on that one.


you want your "rights" ... What gives one the right to abortion? The fact that the human life is inside of them and growing within them? That their body is nuturing them? I don't think those alone justify abortion as a right.

The term unplanned pregnancy is slightly ridiculous... Many couples become pregnant in an "unplanned" way and "choose" (i put in quotes b/c it's a passive choice, meaning you don't have to change anything, it's only a choice when you want to kill the pregnancy) to keep the pregnancy... And when couples are having intercourse with the intention of trying to create life that does not guarantee a pregnancy will occur. My point is the only true planned pregnancies would be artificial fertilization methods that guarantee pregnancy.

Why must the choice to abort be available?
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steen

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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Upper Midwest

Posted: 01-24-05 01:27am

where_is_the_line wrote:
bd1012 wrote:
jeez.. Why do people think that because we are prochoice, we hate kids.. I don't hate kids I just want my freakin rights.. Whether or not I do have an abortion for an unplanned pregnancy is irrelevant.. The choice must be available. Hell, I might have a kid one day down the road.. That's still a big if though.. Really not sure on that one.
you want your "rights" ... What gives one the right to abortion?
the fact of roe ve wade and that women has as much right to control their bodily resources as does anybody else. They are not second-class citizens, and as such they can no more be forced to give of their bodily resources than can you.

Are you saying that you should be forced to give your bodily resources against your will if it meant that it would save somebody else's life?
Quote:
the fact that the human life is inside of them and growing within them? That their body is nuturing them? I don't think those alone justify abortion as a right.
but then, those points are immaterial and irrelevant.
Quote:
the term unplanned pregnancy is slightly ridiculous...
nope.
Quote:
many couples become pregnant in an "unplanned" way and "choose" (i put in quotes b/c it's a passive choice, meaning you don't have to change anything, it's only a choice when you want to kill the pregnancy) to keep the pregnancy...
that would be a pregnancy that is unplanned but not unwanted. As such, that also is completely irrelevant to the issue of abortions.
Quote:
and when couples are having intercourse with the intention of trying to create life that does not guarantee a pregnancy will occur.
but if that pregnancy occurs, then it assuredly was planned.
Quote:
my point is the only true planned pregnancies would be artificial fertilization methods that guarantee pregnancy.
and that is a point that is rather irrelevant to anything on this board.
Quote:
why must the choice to abort be available?
because the woman has the same right to control her own body as does any other person. Her right is assured under the 9th and 14th amendment of the us constitution.
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where_is_the_line

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Joined: 22 Jul 2004
Posts: 173
Location: USA: NY & DC

Posted: 01-25-05 00:13am

Politically speaking, abortion is an issue that involves competing rights. On the one hand, you have the mother's right not to be pregnant. On the other hand, you have the baby's right not to be killed. The question that must be answered is this. Which right is more fundamental? Which right has a greater claim? Abortion advocates argue that outlawing abortion would, in essence, elevate the rights of the unborn over and above those of the mother. "how can you make a fetus more important than a grown woman?", they might ask. In reality, outlawing abortion wouldn't be giving unborn children more rights, it would simply gain for them the one most fundamental right that no one can live without, the right to life.

If a baby is not to be aborted, then the pregnant mother must remain pregnant. This will also require of her sickness, fatigue, reduced mobility, an enlarged body, and a new wardrobe. Fortunately, it is not a permanent condition. On the flip side, for a pregnant woman not to be pregnant, her child must be killed (unless she is past her 21st week of pregnancy, in which case the baby may well survive outside the womb). Abortion costs the unborn child his or her very life and it is a thoroughly permanent condition. This is what's at stake, both for the child and for the mother. It is not an issue of who is more important, but rather who has more on the line.
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where_is_the_line

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Joined: 22 Jul 2004
Posts: 173
Location: USA: NY & DC

Posted: 01-25-05 00:16am

As it stands today, american women have the legal right to obtain an abortion in all 50 states, through all nine months of pregnancy, for virtually any reason at all. This has been true since january of 1973 when the supreme court declared that autonomous abortion rights are built into the constitution, and that any legal barriers which prevent mothers from aborting their children are unconstitutional.

The opportunity to make such a sweeping declaration came via two companion cases, one from texas and the other from georgia. The texas case, roe v. Wade involved a pregnant, single woman, "roe", who was suing the dallas county district attorney, henry wade, to prevent him from enforcing texas' abortion prohibition. The georgia case, doe v. Bolton, involved a married woman who wasn't pregnant, but was suing on the hypothetical threat that pregnancy would pose to her health.

Since the verdicts handed down from these two suits become the legal framework for abortion rights in the u.S., we are left with a system that was not arrived at by vote or by legistlation or by amendment or through public debate. Abortion was legalized through judicial decree, through the decision of seven, non-elected supreme court justices (who all happened to be men). Overnight, unborn children lost all protection under the law, and mother's were granted the right to abort for any reason they so desired.

Prior to this (as noted in the resulting majority opinion), abortion laws were decided on a state-by-state basis, and most states made it "a crime to 'procure an abortion,' ... Except with respect to 'an abortion procured or attempted by medical advice for the purpose of saving the life of the mother.'" in other words, before 1973, the majority of states only allowed for abortion if continued pregnancy was going to kill the mother. Therefore, the supreme court ruling on roe and doe not only took abortion law out of state hands, but it handed them a verdict which was in direct opposition to almost all prior abortion legislation.

How, then, could the court have ruled in the matter it did? The peg on which the entire verdict hangs is personhood. Justice harry blackman stated in the majority opinion of the roe decision that, “if this suggestion of (fetal) personhood is established, the [case in support of legal abortion] collapses, for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the (14th) amendment.” why didn't the court see unborn embryos and fetuses as having a claim to personhood? Because the court, "at this point in the development of man's knowledge," could “not resolve the difficult question of when life begins,” when “those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus.” the bottom line according to the court: the unborn aren't persons because we don't know if they're human.

While this claim of, "we just don't know when life begins," was demonstrably false in 1973, it is even more nonsensical today. We do know when life begins, and it's time to do something, in the service of love, to right what has been a massive wrong. When laws victimize the weak and the vulnerable (rather than protecting them), it is time to change those laws.
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Gero

New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 44

Posted: 01-25-05 13:20pm

Give it a rest, steen. You are going to have a tough time convincing prolife people here that abortion is justifiable no matter what excuse you throw out.
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BrianBaby

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Joined: 19 Jan 2005
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Posted: 01-25-05 13:32pm

msrosie wrote:
welcome.


If you don't like abortion, the solution is simple - don't have one. However, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I do not see children in the same way you do - and since I have no desire to have them, I won't.


Rosie


if you like abortion, the solution is simple - go kill a baby. However, I see absoulte wrong with it. I see children in a light that blesses the world and that they are intended to be a gift from god. Not having kids is your own choice, and you should with all your means prevent yourself from ever coming pregnant, that way the hideous act of aboriton never has to be committed.....I am 11 weeks 5 days pregnant with my first child....Not exactly what I planned since I am 18 and still in school, but obvioulsy god has something beautiful in store for me that I can't begin to comprehend the reasonss of why this happended..... :)
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Kourtney08

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Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 937
Location: Alaska

Posted: 01-25-05 13:35pm

I was 18 when I fell pregnant, im 19 now with a 2 and a half month old. Im glad I didn't get an abortion. But if a woman chooses to get an abortion, its her body, and her choice, and she shouldn't be looked down upon for choosing to do something thats none of anyones buisness.

So yes, babies are a gift from god and bless the world. But what about the mother? She was a baby, isn't she still a blessing from god? Shouldn't she get to choose what happens to her body without being judged? I think so.
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BrianBaby

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Posted: 01-25-05 13:41pm

Nice to meet your kourtney!! It's nice knowing that people are out there, who have gone what your going through!! Me~as an imperfect person cannot judge others for there actions.....And yes god still loves the women who has an abortion just as dearly as he ever did.....As long as they ask for forgivness and repent, then any sin, can be forgiven......It would just be a matter of ackowledging "wrong" behavior! As I was saying, I as a human cannot judge others, however it's important for human beings to sometimes "point out" other peoples mistakes if they go unnoticed....Not judge, just sort of call them out on it......Sometimes it's not the womens choosing~it's higher than that.....God has had a purpose for every human being since the begining of time!!
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bd1012

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Posted: 01-25-05 13:53pm

I don't believe in god and I don't believe abortion is wrong so I have no reason to repent.
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Kourtney08

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Joined: 08 May 2004
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Location: Alaska

Posted: 01-25-05 13:59pm

Well see, it being "wrong" is merely a matter of opinion. Pro-lifers think its wrong, and pro-choicers think its okay. I don't understand why people fight overt his subject, pro-lifers arn't going to change pro-choicers, choices, and vise-versa. So i'll support a woman in anything she does, unless shes harming her self.

So you're pregnant? Are you married? Is the dad still in the picture? Im just asking because you're very christian-like, and i'd figured you'd be married. If not, thats cool too.

My babys father is still in the picture and we're getting married next year. :)

kourtney
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BrianBaby

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Posted: 01-25-05 14:06pm

bd1012 wrote:
i don't believe in god and I don't believe abortion is wrong so I have no reason to repent.


okay then!
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