Abortion Debate Forum - Steen, In the Debate Forum Now, Can You Answer the Question?


Steen, In the Debate Forum Now, Can You Answer the Question?	Join us now!

Medical Questions-> Health Forums -> Abortion Debate -> Steen, In the Debate Forum Now, Can You Answer the Question?

Medical Questions

Author

Message

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Steen, In the Debate Forum Now, Can You Answer the Question? Posted: 06-03-05 21:59pm


Steen, in the other forum you repeatedly told me to take this debate to this forum. I'm here now and ready to hear your response. You wouldn't answer the original question in the support forum, you kept telling me to take it here. So now I would like to know what your answer is. If the link I posted about the methods of abortion was all lies. Please, now you have your chance, tell me what the true methods of abortion are. I really would like to hear your response. If you can handle it, would you please refrain from all the name calling and accusations, lets be civil about this. Thanks.

steen

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: Steen, In the Debate Forum Now, Can You Answer the Quest
Posted: 06-04-05 00:40am

mom2ty wrote:

steen, in the other forum you repeatedly told me to take this debate to this forum. I'm here now and ready to hear your response.

i appreciate it.

Quote:

if the link I posted about the methods of abortion was all lies.

it was full of lies, yes.

Quote:

please, now you have your chance, tell me what the true methods of abortion are. I really would like to hear your response.

the vast majority of surgical abortions are essentially d&cs. Most are done before the end of the 8th week of pregnancy. In a d&c, suction and a scraper is used to scrape and suction away the lining of the uterus, including the beginning placenta and the very small embryo.

After 1st trimester, the d&c really isn't feasible anymore, but also is when more than 80% (afair) of all abortions are already done. After then, in 2nd trimester, the options generally are the d&e, where the fetus is removed in pieces, or the safer, cervix-sparring d&x (which generally is what the prolife mislabel as "partial birth" abortion), where the skull is collaped so the cervix doesn't need as much dilation and no instruments are inserted significantly into the uterus, thus decreasing the risk of perforation. In rare cases, abortions are done after 20 weeks, generally when pregnancy complications show up, or when the 20-week ultrasound reveals serious fetal abormalities. But while a few of them are done through the d&x through 22nd week, most are done through simple induction of contractions of the uterus.

Now, next time, I will take the site you referenced to task for its additional claims about abortion risks and whatnot, but right now, I am somewhat tired after a full day on-call.

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Re: Steen, In the Debate Forum Now, Can You Answer the Quest
Posted: 06-05-05 11:56am

steen wrote:

mom2ty wrote:

steen, in the other forum you repeatedly told me to take this debate to this forum. I'm here now and ready to hear your response.

i appreciate it.

Quote:

if the link I posted about the methods of abortion was all lies.

it was full of lies, yes.

Quote:

please, now you have your chance, tell me what the true methods of abortion are. I really would like to hear your response.

early vacuum aspiration: within 7 weeks after lmp
this surgical abortion is done early in the pregnancy up until 7 weeks after the woman's last menstrual period. The cervical muscle is stretched with dilators (metal rods) until the opening is wide enough to allow the abortion instruments to pass into the uterus. A hand held syringe is attached to tubing that is inserted into the uterus and the fetus is suctioned out.

Suction curettage: within 6 to 14 weeks after lmp
in this procedure, the doctor opens the cervix with a dilator (a metal rod) or laminaria (thin sticks derived from plants and inserted several hours before the procedure). The doctor inserts tubing into the uterus and connects the tubing to a suction machine. The suction pulls the fetus' body apart and out of the uterus. One variation of this procedure is called dilation and curettage (d&c). In this method, the doctor may use a curette, a loop-shaped knife, to scrape the fetal parts out of the uterus.

Dilation and evacuation (d&e): within 13 to 24 weeks after lmp
this surgical abortion is done during the second trimester of pregnancy. Because the developing fetus doubles in size between the thirteenth and fourteenth weeks of pregnancy, the body of the fetus is too large to be broken up by suction and will not pass through the suction tubing. In this procedure, the cervix must be opened wider than in a first trimester abortion. This is done by inserting laminaria a day or two before the abortion. After opening the cervix, the doctor pulls out the fetal parts with forceps. The fetus' skull is crushed to ease removal.

Dilation and extraction (d&x): from 20 weeks after lmp to full-term
also known as partial-birth abortion, this procedure takes three days. During the first two days, the cervix is dilated and medication is given for cramping. On the third day, the woman receives medication to start labor. After labor begins, the abortion doctor uses ultrasound to locate the baby's legs. Grasping a leg with forceps, the doctor delivers the baby up to the baby's head. Next, scissors are inserted into the base of the skull to create an opening. A suction catheter is placed into the opening to remove the skull contents. The skull collapses and the baby is removed.

**nothing in your reply points out any lies in the procedures listed on that website. You just simply leave out many parts of the procedure in order to make it sound better. Typical of fundie pro-deathers.

oopoopoop

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Mar 2004
Posts: 1195
Location: ,

Thanks: 33

Thanked:1

Posted: 06-05-05 12:11pm


What is most interesting is how they switch from using the word fetus to using the word baby after 20 weeks.

mom2trevor

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 06-05-05 13:22pm


Question? So when they do the induction abortion do you deliever a dead baby or a dead fetus?? birth is the difference between a fetus and a baby right?

steen

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: Steen, In the Debate Forum Now, Can You Answer the Quest
Posted: 06-05-05 15:16pm

mom2ty wrote:

early vacuum aspiration: within 7 weeks after lmp
this surgical abortion is done early in the pregnancy up until 7 weeks after the woman's last menstrual period.

actually, after 5-6 weeks, it becomes impractical.

Quote:

the cervical muscle is stretched with dilators (metal rods)

actually, they can be just about any material

Quote:

until the opening is wide enough to allow the abortion instruments to pass into the uterus.

that would be a plastic tube, nothing else.

Quote:

a hand held syringe is attached to tubing that is inserted into the uterus and the fetus is suctioned out.

there is no fetus until the end of the 8th week. They can't even get the developmental stage right.

Quote:

suction curettage: within 6 to 14 weeks after lmp

exactly the same as a d&c, yes.

Quote:

the doctor inserts tubing into the uterus and connects the tubing to a suction machine. The suction pulls the fetus' body apart and out of the uterus.

actually most of the time the fetus "body" is small enough that it is sucked out whole. It is smaller than a bean at 8 weeks.

Quote:

one variation of this procedure is called dilation and curettage (d&c). In this method, the doctor may use a curette, a loop-shaped knife, to scrape the fetal parts out of the uterus.

your info is hopelessly outdated. Nowadays, a suction tube with a small edge build in at one edge is used.

Quote:

dilation and evacuation (d&e): within 13 to 24 weeks after lmp
this surgical abortion is done during the second trimester of pregnancy. Because the developing fetus doubles in size between the thirteenth and fourteenth weeks of pregnancy, the body of the fetus is too large to be broken up by suction and will not pass through the suction tubing. In this procedure, the cervix must be opened wider than in a first trimester abortion. This is done by inserting laminaria a day or two before the abortion. After opening the cervix, the doctor pulls out the fetal parts with forceps. The fetus' skull is crushed to ease removal.

actually, in the d&e, the skull is not crushed. That is why the d&x is considered to be easier on the woman's cervix than the d&e, because in the d&x, the cervix doesn't need as much dilation..

Quote:

dilation and extraction (d&x): from 20 weeks after lmp to full-term

and here it is. The site is flatout lying full speed, which is where I suspect the pl get their really stupid and false ideas about the d&x procedure. It is also why what pl describes as pba is not connected to reality. The d&x is a substitute for the d&e, performed in the same timespan as the d&e. So to claim that it (or any abortions for that matter) is done at term is a flat-out lie. D&x, like d&e are second-trimester procedures. In 3rd trimester, the the fetal torso simply is so wide that there is no benefit from the d&x. The d&x was developed to have less cervical dilation. When the fetal torso is as wide as the skull, then the cervical dilation will have to be larger also, and going through the relatively greater effort of the d&x is discarded in favor of simple induction of uterine contractions.

That pl don't know this, or completely ignore it because it doesn't match the shockvalue that they feel they need to make their point shows that pl are either ignorant or flatout lying.

Now, the above has been explained to pl many times, and you have simply chosen to ignore it. Therefore, it sure seems that rather than ignorance, the claims about the d&x procedure is based on willful lying. Yes, as such, pl are stinking liars.

Yes, pl lie, and they lie all the time. It is claims like this one that shows this propensity to lie. When you decide to uncritically repeat the lies of such prolie sites as "abortionfact," then you are spreading lies, and you will be called a liar.

Quote:

also known as partial-birth abortion,

rather, pl makes up false claims about the d&x procedure, and then name that fictitious process the "pba." that it doesn't really exist as described, and that pl thus are merely lying for emotional shock value, that merely confirms how incredibly dishonest pl are. Pl are scumbag liars, you couldn't tell atruth if your life depended on it, obviously.

Quote:

this procedure takes three days. During the first two days, the cervix is dilated and medication is given for cramping. On the third day, the woman receives medication to start labor. After labor begins, the abortion doctor uses ultrasound to locate the baby's legs.

it is a fetus. Just another example of how dishonest pl is in their desperate appeal to emotional platitudes rather than facts.

Quote:

grasping a leg with forceps, the doctor delivers the baby

nope, it is not "delivered." delivery is what happens in labor. This process is not labor, your prolife lying revisionist linguistical hyperbolic crap none withstanding.

Quote:

up to the baby's head.

there is no baby, prolife.... Well, you know the rest, liar.

Quote:

next, scissors

nope, they are forceps. Your site, and thus you, can't even get that straight. Shows incredible ignorance. You are all about emotion with complete disregard for facts and truth. Shame on you, liar.

Quote:

are inserted into the base of the skull to create an opening. A suction catheter is placed into the opening to remove the skull contents. The skull collapses and the baby is removed.

and yet, there is no "baby." no surprise.

Now tell me, just to display your incredible ignorance, what benefit there would be of collapsing the skull if the fetal torso is as wide as the head? Yup, no benefit. So your site is full of crap, and thus are you.

Quote:

**nothing in your reply points out any lies in the procedures listed on that website.

see above. Also, did you just **miss** where I stated that I would deal with the sites' lies in a later post, or did you just decide to be dishonest about it, spewing even more lying crap? Are you at all surprised that we se pl as lying scumbag creeps with such behavior?

Quote:

you just simply leave out many parts of the procedure in order to make it sound better.

you must be the dumbest health forum ever having been on these boards, person liar.

Quote:

typical of fundie pro-deathers.

"fundie"? Yes, just further confirming what an ignorant person you are, nitwit.

Sheesh, I truly detest liars. And pl lie more than most, just as much as the creationist slimeballs, you are all scumbag liars.

lil_blaze2004

Supporter

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6492
Location: ,

Thanks: 1

Thanked:0

Posted: 06-05-05 19:50pm


Steen is slowing going crazy-1-2-3-4-5-6 switch-lol sorry steen. Some of these people really get to u eh? He wasn't even this bad with jlee and they got pretty bad.

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Posted: 06-05-05 20:40pm


Dilation and sharp curettage (d & c) in this type of procedure, the cervix is slowly opened and the fetus, placenta and membranes are scraped from inside the uterus with a sharp instrument. Vacuum aspiration this is the most common abortion procedure in the first trimester, with 97% of all abortions during that time period being performed in this manner. The cervix is opened enough to allow the insertion of a suction catheter (tube). The fetus, placenta and membranes are then removed by the use of the specially designed suction catheter or vacuum device. This method generally takes approximately 5 minutes after the cervix has been opened. The procedure used for cervical dilatation can take several hours. Dilation and evacuation this procedure is performed under local anesthetic between 13 and 20 weeks of pregnancy. It involves the gradual opening of the cervix and removal of the fetus, placenta and membranes by alternating suction and sharp curettage. This is currently the most common method used in the second trimester. Intra-amniotic instillations solutions of hypertonic urea and a prostaglandin may be instilled into the amniotic sac after partial removal of the amniotic fluid. Urea kills the fetus, and prostaglandin helps ensure expulsion. Contractions begin within 8 to 12 hours and may last 48 hours before the fetus, placenta and membranes are expelled. Intact dilation and extraction (partial birth abortion) in this procedure, the physician pulls the fetus feet-first out of the uterus into the birth canal, except for the head which is kept lodged just inside the uterus. The base of the fetus’s skull is punctured with a sharp instrument such as a long scissors or pointed metal tube. A catheter is inserted into the wound and removes the fetus’s brain with a powerful suction machine. This causes the skull to collapse, and allows for the expulsion of the fetus. Sources: maternity nursing, fifth edition deitra leonard lowdermilk, rnc, phd, faan; shannon e. Perry, rn, phd, faan; irene m. Bobak, rn, phd, faan lowdermilk, perry and bobak mosby, inc. 1999 ingalls and salerno’s maternal and child health nursing, ninth edition julie c. Novak, dnsc, rn, cpnp; betty l. Broom, phd, rn mosby, inc. 1999 maternal-infant nursing care, third edition elizabeth jean dickason, rn, ma, med; bonnie lang silverman, rnc, ms, nnp; judith a. Kaplan, rn, acce, phd mosby, inc. 1999 "dilation and extraction for late second trimester abortions" in "second trimester abortion: from every angle"; fall risk management seminar, sept. 13 - 14, 1992 dallas, tx; martin haskell, md taber’s cyclopedic medical dictionary, edition 19 f. A. Davis company philadelphia, pa published 2001 contraceptive technology, seventeenth revised edition robert a. Hatcher, james trussell, felicia stewart, willard cates jr., gary k. Stewart, felicia guest, deborah kowal published by ardent media, inc. 1998 merck manual of diagnosis and therapy, section 18. Gynecology and obstetrics, seventeenth edition editors: mark h. Beers, m.D. And robert berkow, m.D. Published by merck and co., inc. Copyright 1999-2003

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Posted: 06-05-05 20:45pm


From the american pregnancy association: http://www.Americanpregnancy.Or g/unplannedpregnancy/surgicalabortions.Htm l (feel better pc?) dilation & curettage (d&c): how is dilation and curettage performed? Dilation and curettage is a surgical abortion procedure performed during the first 12 to 15 weeks gestation. Dilation and curettage is similar to suction aspiration with the introduction of a curette. A curette is a long, looped shaped knife that scrapes the lining, placenta and fetus away from the uterus. A cannula may be inserted for a final suctioning. This procedure usually lasts 10 minutes with a possible stay of 5 hours. Dilation & evacuation (d&e): how is dilation & evacuation performed? Dilation and evacuation is a surgical abortion procedure performed between 15 to 21 weeks gestation. 24 hours prior to the actual procedure, your abortion provider will insert laminaria or a synthetic dilator inside your cervix. When the procedure begins the next day, your abortion provider will clamp a tenaculum to the cervix to keep the uterus in place and cone-shaped rods of increasing size are used to continue the dilation process. The cannula is inserted to begin removing tissue away from the lining. Then using a curette, the lining is scraped to remove any residuals. If needed, forceps may be used to remove larger parts. The last step is usually a final suctioning to make sure the contents are completely removed. The procedure normally takes about 30 minutes and is usually performed in a hospital setting because of the greater risk for complications. The fetal remains are usually examined to ensure everything was removed and that the abortion was complete. Dialation and extraction: how is dialation and extraction performed? The dialation and extraction procedure is used after 21 weeks gestation. The procedure is also known as d & x, intact d & x, intrauterine cranial decompression and partial birth abortion. Two days before the procedure, laminaria is inserted vaginally to dilate the cervix. Your water should break on the third day and you should return to the clinic. The fetus is rotated and forceps are used to grasp and pull the legs, shoulders and arms through the birth canal. A small incision is made at the base of the skull to allow a suction catheter inside. The catheter removes the cerebral material until the skull collapses. Then the fetus is completely removed. Last edited by mom2ty on 06-05-05 21:12pm; edited 1 time in total

steen

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Upper Midwest

Some Facts Posted: 06-05-05 21:06pm


Http://www .Cdc.Gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.Ht m results: a total of 853,485 legal induced abortions were reported to cdc for 2001 from 49 reporting areas, representing a 0.5% decrease from the 857,475 legal induced abortions reported by the same 49 reporting areas for 2000. The abortion ratio, defined as the number of abortions per 1,000 live births, was 246 in 2001, compared with 245 reported for 2000. This represents a 0.4% increase in the abortion ratio. The abortion rate was 16 per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years for 2001, the same as for 2000. For both the 48 and 49 reporting areas, the abortion rate remained relatively constant during 1997--2001. The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women who were unmarried (82%), white (55%) and aged <25 years (52%). Of all abortions for which gestational age was reported, 59% were performed at <8 weeks' gestation and 88% at <13 weeks. From 1992 (when detailed data regarding early abortions were first collected) through 2001, steady increases have occurred in the percentage of abortions performed at <6 weeks' gestation. A limited number of abortions were obtained at >15 weeks' gestation, including 4.3% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks. A total of 35 reporting areas submitted data stating that they performed medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 2.9% of all reported procedures from the 45 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure. In 2000 (the most recent year for which data are available), 11 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion. No deaths were associated with known illegal abortion. (morbidity and mortality weekly report centers for disease control and prevention 1600 clifton rd, mailstop k-95, atlanta, ga 30333, u.S.A) and from the same site: for women whose type of procedure was adequately reported, 95% of abortions were known to have been performed by curettage (which includes dilatation and evacuation [d&e]) and 0.5% by intrauterine instillation (table 8). Hysterectomy and hysterotomy were included in the "other" procedure category and were known to have been used in <0.01% of all abortions. (the rest being medical abortions rather than surgical-steen)

mom2trevor

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 06-05-05 22:29pm


Why has my question been avoided?

mom2trevor

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 06-05-05 23:09pm


So if a baby is born but not breathing then it isn't a baby? I would actually like to have a more scientific input than just your opinion.

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Posted: 06-06-05 06:51am


At what point does it become a baby pc?

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Posted: 06-06-05 07:42am

pcforme wrote:

mom2ty wrote:

at what point does it become a baby pc?

read your bible... It tells you right there. Birth/breathing indicaties life. Stillborns don't breath.

so a baby born dead at 37 weeks isn't a baby? What an fool.

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Posted: 06-06-05 07:48am


Also, since you are going to quote the bible, will you please give the exact scripture that you are referencing to. Thanks.

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Posted: 06-06-05 08:01am


"your baby gets oxygen from you. Blood from your baby flows to the placenta through the umbilical cord. In the placenta, oxygen and nutrients are transported from your blood to the fetal blood. Although the circulation of your blood and that of your baby come close, there is no direct connection. These circulation systems are completly separate." http://www.Mdad vice.Com/library/urpreg/wbw18.Htm

mom2trevor

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 06-06-05 14:48pm


I'm sorry i'm just not heartless enough to see a fetus as disposable. A woman also has the right as to wether or not her body is used in a way that will leave it open to pregnancy...Or do you forget that part?

mom2trevor

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 06-06-05 15:06pm


And a z/e/f shouldn't be punished because of sex...

mom2ty

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 87

Posted: 06-06-05 16:39pm

pcforme wrote:

mom2trevor wrote:

and a z/e/f shouldn't be punished because of sex...

nor should it be used as a punishment by anti women fundies...

it's not a punishment. Its a result of an action. It's called reproduction. You know, that's how we all got here. But anti-life pro-death fundies like you can't understand that.

mom2trevor

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 694
Location: VA

Posted: 06-06-05 18:15pm


Pc--your little statement above makes absolutly no sense...Please explain your reasoning.