Lumber Puncture

Yes, that is what it was like for me, get her back to er or something and tell them she had lumbar puncture and having severe headaches, with nausea. They did a blood patch for me right in the er and I felt so good I could have kissed the .Dr. I thought I would die for 5 days before that meeting in the er, though. When I would lay on my side, I could even feel the fluid in my brain running to the other side--like I was 1/2 empty. Talk about a strange experience.

Hi I am new to this web site but I have been looking for something like this to try and get some answers, reading some of the posts I now know I am not going mad and that other people do have the same symptoms as me, I have been constantly told that the symptoms I have are nothing to do with lp's I have had.

Ok here is a little bout my story.

I have benign inter cranial hypertension, I was diagnosed 24 years ago after having my son, I was suffering from violent headaches and sickness, I had a lumbar puncture(lp) to check the pressure surrounding my brain, apparently the danger level is 13 mine was 27 they drained some fluid off to reduce pressure, I was told that from time to time I may have to have a lp but it would be rare, it was a terrible experience that gave me electric shocks in different parts of my body at different times they did them. I was also told I may have to have a shunt put in my head at a later date if the diuretics stopped working.

10 years ago I started having black outs, I had moved areas so was sent to a different hospital. I went and saw a junior dr on the ward who said I had to have a lp it took them 3 attempts to insert the needle correctly and drain fluid off, after 2nd attempt they gave me "an hour off" and administered a second dose of local anaesthetic, besides the horrendous electric shocks I suffered in different parts of my body, depending obviously which nerve they were touching, I was sent home 5 hours later, I was in bed for 5 days in terrible pain in my head, and was admitted back into hospital for 5 days were they told me I had low pressure headaches at this point they told me I need lp's every 3 weeks, they did this for 10 months, other than one time when a female indian dr did it I never had one lp it was always on the 5th 6th attempt that they managed to insert it, after 10 months of suffering this and being in terrible pain I insisted on seeing the consultant I had never seen the dr I was actually under always registrar's as you can imagine when the roll over of wards took place I got another set of junior dr's training in doing lp's, my husband was getting very concerned as he stayed with me through out each one for support, I saw the consultant who said to me " your back must be in a bit of a mess by now"?? I think we need to do surgery and put a shunt in, my pressure was always between 27 and 30 they would reduce it and each time ti was 27 & 30 when I went back, I was admitted into hospital 2 days later for surgery.

I was told that I would have to have some sort of scan to decide which way they would insert it! Either from spine to stomach obviously safest and quickest, or from skull to stomach, I laid there for 12 hours waiting for the scan to be told they had decide not to do it they took me to surgery and inserted a shunt.

Since that day my back got worst and worst to the point I go into spasm when I walk too far stretch or bend over, I can not stand for very long as I go into spasm I get a terrific electric shock in my spine it then goes down my leg through my hip I can not move my hip it is as though I am paralysed then when pain eases I have tooth ache in my leg and back and my leg feels like a lead weight I am on umpteen pain killers I have to lie down in bed to wait for the pain to go, this can take anything from 1 hour to 3 weeks, I am now registered disabled, I can not prove that lp's caused it but I do wander how many other cripples are going to be created before someone stops this from happening.

I can be found also on my web groups here
http://groups.Msn.Com/reali tysoflife
http://groups.Msn.Com/a bsentfamiliescare

thank you for allowing me to share this with people who may understand I have been alone with this for all these years. Because people say lp's don't cause this I have thought I was going mad until I read some posts on here and realised other people are suffering along with me.

Trudy-i had a tumor taken out of my left foot nov3rd,05. After two days the pain was awful-i went in for a nerve block injection-#1 the pain from the injection was worse then the surgery -then I noticed him massaging the injection site with bare hands -within 2davs I had a fever and a puss bubble in the injection spot-no gloves nadda-angers me off that some not all think they are god ...I have a primary care doc. That I would follow through the gates of hell...Good luck, get a attorney -wrong -is wrong -we pay for there knowledge -not there stupidity-i hope you are feeling better -------god bless w/respect eddie

Hi my names joanne I was taken into hospital a week ago for a severe head pain. I under-went a ct scan and it showed no tumors, I then under went 7 lumber puncture attempts by two docter who kept going in and I ended up passing out, they came and attempted again I went into shock and wanted to be sick and could'nt swallow. The nuring staff told the doctors to stop I had had enough and that they had been at it from 9.30am till 12.30pm. I was in severe pain all down my spine and in my hips. The next day at 9.30am an anaesthetist came and attempted to do another he went in two times with no luck and with great pain to me finally the third time he managed to get some fluid, he said it was the most difficult he had ever done because my vertebra's were close together. I came out of hospital the very next day I could hardly move, I was having spasms in my legs and arms and in great pain, I also had lost some of my hearing it felt like I was underwater. I ended up back in hospital the next day and was told they didnt know what it was, they never checked me over and discharged me. I am in great pain and am living on tramadol, ibroprofin, paracetamol, gabapentin, dothapin and benahistine hydrochloride. 4 times a day, my employer is a gp and he is disgusted and wants me to make a formal complaint I dont know what to do.

It is totally beyond me as to how bad these doctors are at doing a procedure that is as important as an lp.

Unless you are pregnant, you need to be asking about floroscopy. Make them use technology to find the spinal canal and navigate with x-ray.

Hi thanks for your reply. I have decided to take this matter further and have contacted the hospitals patient liaison manager. This morning my ears seem clearer, however my pain in my back is worse I can hardly walk. I noticed that someone said they had lots of holes in their back, I have many holes in my back and there right up to the middle of my shoulder blades,as well as at my lower back. I dont feel well at all, my headaches have gone, however I am left with worse pain than I went in with. I am going to see an ear nose and throat doctor this week about my ears. I have a balance problem which I have had since dec 1st, but since I experienced the lumber punctures I am much worse and I feel dizzy all the time, my husband is too scared to leave my children alone with me. I am at my wits end I have not seen my children properly since last sunday. How do I care for them a 2 year old and a 8 year old, I feel useless especially since I am very hyper active normally.

Can anyone help us as we are our wits end
on monday last week my wife was admitted to hospital after complaining of severe headaches. A ct scan was performed and no bleed was found in the brain. A lumber puncture was then performed by a junior doctor who after several attempts to drain fluid gave up and another doctor stepped in.
He stated that it was common in women to find it hard to drain fluid.
The fluid was drained and 2 hours later my wife was discharged from hospital with the explanation that she was probably suffering from migraine.
On friday of this week my wife is going nuts with back pain and I mean nuts.
She is struggling to walk, she cannot get comfortable no matter which position she adopts either standing or lying down.
Has anyone else experienced this or does anyone have any answers as we are both going mad with it

Hi guys sorry to be late to this particular party. Ha, note my sarcasm.

I too believe that lumbar punctures are creating problems in people that doctors don't fully understand.

Trudy I am in the uk too and I would be interested to know did you sign a consent form before the lp? It says on the consent form, on the back, that in the uk, the courts want evidence that reasonable risks were explained to reasonable people and then goes on to advise that "reasonable" has not been defined.

I had a lumbar puncture recently and I went through the consent form in detail but was told regarding my existing back pain - we cannot tell you the long term risks - but I am also being told that I can't get diagnosed without lumbar puncture, so I went ahead with it, but I wrote on the form myself, long terms risks unquantified.

There is a process that is supposed to be followed in detail for the performance of a lumbar puncture - and the risks of infections in uk hospitals are extremely high, they are supposed to scrub you before they even touch you!!! They should have used fluoroscopy, no question. To attempt a lp a second time after you blacking out again without fluorscopy is in my view patently negligent.

There are enough of us here bringing this issue into the open that we all know something is going on with these lumbar punctures damaging people and people not being propery informed of the risks. How can you consent to a lumbar puncture properly if you are not aware of the longer term risks????


We can't all be going mad!!!

Furthermore trudy, I am sorry to have to tell you that it is a common defence mechanism for uk doctors to label patients as depressed when they can't find the answer to a problem for a while. You have to stamp your feet and make it categorically clear that this is a physical problem which commenced after a lumbar puncture. Demand better answers than this, it's pathetic and unacceptable. You're a human being, we wouldn't leave an animal in pain without doing something!!

Trudy - also the question of the prolapsed disk - was this seen on mri previously? Or a new finding? Is the disk causing the nerve problems? Or the lp? These are the issues that would need to be disseminated in order to understand how to proceed. If it is not the disk causing the neuro problems, the lp could be to blame.

Mri doesn't show everything, there are other imaging tests such as isotope bone scans. There is no single imaging test that shows everything and quite often anything that is there is missed.

I think you and a lot of others here sound like the classic patient that falls prey to a doctor who proceeds straight into investigations without explaining the implications to the patient and perhaps not obtaining proper consent. It is well and good you signing the form if you did, but if the risks were not properly explained this amounts to consent without being informed of the facts, i.E. Basically consent by deception.

I really think you should consider a visit to a solicitor - this sounds like classic clinical negligence to me. You will find it very difficult to get anyone to admit that your symptoms are a result of a lp - doctors close ranks and protect each other in these cases but an expert medical opinion may be enough to swing things in your favour.

I would also consider it negligent to continue attempting lumbar punctures after one attempt where you blacked out. The next attempt - given the catastrophic results of the first should have been conducted with guided fluoroscopy to ensure correct placement of the needle.

These scenarios are getting all too common in the uk, it's outrageous that it is continuing, but if people do not go and seek legal advice and make these negligent doctors accountable this problem and others will continue.

It has come to the stage where the government in the uk is putting aside 1 billion uk £ per year to pay for clinical negligence claims because there are so many errors in uk medicine. The government are now working on an nhs redress scheme which will compensate people up to 20/30 thousand £ claims to save money on litigation fees.

I suggest you contact a solicitor, get your local mp on board, the chief executive of your local hospital, ask them for a full explanation, get copies of your medical records first before you do anything - if you are going to suffer with long term disability then some careful planning needs to be put in place now and you definitely need proper answers from the medical community, not fob offs.

I think a few other people here also need to go and see solicitors that specialise in medical negligence - the only way to change this situation is for people to start bringing it to the attention of the courts. This is people's lives and futures we're talking here and it is absolutely unacceptable that people are becoming disabled and suffering with chronic pain just because they had a test and were not told of the risks.

Trudy since you asked the original question, let us know how you get on, regards anne ps do not be frightened to kick up a big fuss, this is your life and we only get one, no doctor would sit back in pain and unable to function without demanding answers, why should we?

Hi trudy

thanks for your kind words. I feel your pain so much, I have been through a series of medical blunders myself, we put our utmost faith in doctors and don't realise that mistakes are made frequently, my own experience showed how much these negligent medical mistakes can devastate a person's life.

The only way forward to bring the attention of the medical world to these residual lumbar puncture problems is for everyone to go and see solicitors, explain their situation and find out is there a case for negligence.

It has come to light in the uk that a lot of people with cancer are missed in the stages when they should be diagnosed, there are also cases of childhood epilepsy in leicester, there are a whole catalogue of medical blunders, they are just hushed up a lot and the doctors are struck off then reinstated quietly a few years later.

I am not for a moment suggesting that every doctor is at fault all the time but in trudy's case, it is negligent when the doctor did not obtain written consent and therefore certainly could not explain the risks. This lumbar puncture is negligent. It is negligent medical practice to proceed without obtaining patient consent and without explaining reasonable risks.

A person cannot give full consent without being fully briefed on the risks of proceeding with a lumbar puncture. There is a consent form in the uk it details on this form what the courts would expect to be explained to the patient.

It is not acceptable to carry out a lumbar puncture without a dissemination of the procedure first, then get the patient's consent on the written form then carry out the procedure according to established protocol.

There is a new up to the minute book on clinical negligence just came out if anyone wants the details let me know.

Regards
annemarie

Hi folks, this is the link to the book on clinical negligence, it is very expensive, perhaps if a few people in uk want to club together? Or you can get it on 30 day trial, regards annemarie

http://www.Tottelp ublishing.Com/clinical.Html

Hello everyone

reference all you people that are suffering in pain through lumber punctures & no answers to why you feel the way you do, being fobbed off from doctors and medical staff.

I am trying to collect as much information as possible.

Does anyone know whether it is law in this country to have to get a consent form signed before a lumber puncture is done ???

I have also been told that proving a lumber puncture negligence is vitually unheard off !!!!. - anyone got any thoughts on this ?????

Good news is found a succesful tried case in the usa if anyone would like a copy please pm me.

Regards

trudy

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Hi trudy

if you are going to consider preparing your own case then there are a few things to be aware of in the uk. I will address your points in order:

there is no legal black and white answer regarding consent. What the courts try to establish is, was the lack of consent negligent? In cases where it might be say an emergency measure to save someone's life, it may just be acceptable to avoid consent. But in your case, a simple test, there is really no reasonable justification for not obtaining consent. What you are trying to prove is negligence and the defendant doctor would have provide as his defence, an extremely good justification, which to my mind, does not exist in this case. It was not an emergency lumbar puncture and you were not unconscious prior to the procedure, meaning there was no real reason not to explain the risks and gain your consent before the lumbar puncture.

Proving medical negligence rests within tortious law - the law of torts. Negligence against the person is a tortious breach, for which the remedy is damages. There are concepts to be considered within tort law, such as remoteness and reasonableness and foreseeability. What the court would ask, is was it foreseeable that your current medical problems would be caused by a lumbar puncture? They would also consider the "but for" test which is, would this lady have these problems, "but for" having a lumbar puncture.

This is why there is an element of uncertainty in medical cases, it's all down to what the defence comes up with, but a good lawyer in your case would certainly be able to mitigate their defence. These cases all spin on their own merits, there's no set black and white parameters in many medical cases.

Moving on to your point about the usa case - while this might be good evidence on the medical side, legally it counts for very little in the uk. The doctrine of judicial precedent decrees that courts must follow binding decisions made in previous cases in the uk. We are only bound by europe, who ultimately through ecj have jurisdiction over the domestic uk courts. If you raise a case which has never been raised, the case will turn on it's own merits and facts.

Looking again at consent issues - even if you had consented, known as volenti, a common defence, the courts will still look to attribute your current medical condition as a direct consequence of the lumbar puncture. Effectively if they could link them, any consent on your part merely amounts to contributory negligence and a potential reduction in damages.

I have the details of a man whom successfully raised a case and challenged a defendant doctor, he won, if you want those details buzz me.

But I really do suggest that this is matter for an expert solicitor whom is experienced in medical negligence. Undoubtedly you would need to bring a barrister into it too at some point. But assessing all the facts - there was no emergency and you were conscious, which all reinforce the presumption that consent should have been gained and a failure to do so was negligent.

Regards

annemarie

:? Hi there, I was diagnosed with ms last june and was told I didnt need a lumber puncture to prove diagnosis. Then a different consultant decided I did first attempt (on ward with people bumping doc while needle was in my back surprised im not parylised) unsupervised by her superior she then decided she couldnt do it and went off 2 find him leaving needle in my back. Couldnt find him so abondon attempt. 2nd attempt 2 days later went off 2 find him again (found him thank god) and completed procedure. I have had constant back pain since. I was never given a consent form, told I could refused or were the dangers explained 2 me. I feel extremely angry abot the way I was treated and have contacted a solicitor. Has anyone else had simlar treatment?

Hi, with regards to diagnosis of multiple sclerosis, if you were already told you definitely had ms before a lumbar puncture then under the national institute for clinical excellence guidelines you probably didn't even need the lumbar puncture.

If the procedure is not explained fully then you cannot be said to have given consent, even if you did sign a consent form. A lack of consent fundamentally equals battery in the law of tort under the category of trespass to the person.

There is a case called sidaway (vs x health authority) where a patient was told they needed a spinal procedure and she signed a consent form. However the patient was not told of the 1 or 2% risk of paralysis because the doctor thought the risk was so small. The patient became paralysed following the procedure and successfully brought an action against the doctor for negligence in not fully explaining the risks. The foundation of the case was based on the lack of informed consent. You cannot fully consent to a procedure if you are in fact not made aware of the risks.

Glad to see people are going to solicitors and doing something about it but even seeing a solicitor is a minefield, you really need one that specialises in medical negligence.

Regards

am

:d thanks 4 you comments am currently in contact with a specialist solictor in med neg. Will keep u posted

Hello everyone,

while I personally cannot relate to the pain and agony you must all be going through my young teenage daughter most definitely can!

Last summer she was diagnosed with a strep throat and was prescribed a medication which contained a sulphite, after taking the prescribed drugs for 10 days her condition worsened to a point where she could no longer gather up the strength to walk, was experiencing severe migraines, and was extremely sensitive to noise and light. After a mad and fearful rush back to the doctor she was transported via ambualnce to the hospital.

They left her for three hours, in complete pain, squeezing my hand until it went blue, and biting her lip to keep form crying until they put her in a dark and private room. After another eight hours we finally saw a doctor, at which point my daughter had begun to pass in/out of conciousness. After seeing her for 15 minutes he sent in a nurse to put an iv in her arm and told us that while he was sure it was only an allergic reaction he felt it was neccessary to perform an lp right away.

We were never given any information and were only given a waver to sign which did not explain any of the risks, the doctor had informed us that there were no possible scenarios where anything could go wrong. We signed and they put my daughter under with a dose of morphine.

Needless to say the doctor was completely wrong and everythign went completely wrong. Firstly my daughter had only been semi-concious when he had told her what was going to happen and they completely misjudged the amount of morphine to giver her. As they had inserted the needle much to my horror my daughter suddenly woke up completely straightened out. I was completely at a loss of words as my daughter screamed in utter agaony and the doctors only solution was to order her drugged yet again! I watched as my daughter was put under with another dose of morphine, her body was moved back into position and he continued to finish extracting the fluid from her spinal column. When I inquired as to whther or not the previous event was common or whther or not it would affect her spine I was dismissed, and told there was nothing wrong with the previous events.

Since that horrific incident my daughter has been unable to properly bend back and is constantly plagued with severe back pain that prevents her from walking and leaves her in tears. Once a competitive dancer my daughter is now no longer able to competitivly dance and can only dance for a limited time before the pain becomes to great. Her period are unbearable as her back pain is only further elevated by her cramps and on those days she can't move let alone go to school. Her lower back where the lp took place is constantly swollen and has been bruised ever since!

I am mortified at what has happened, and even more enraged that my sixteen year old baby girl is always in complete pain. She can withstand alot and has a high pain tolerance but when she is reduced to tears and unable to move, my anger is only further fueled.

I consented to a lp to help my daughter and I ended up doing her more harm than good and as a mother thats a burden I wish I had never brought upon myself.

-debbie