What the Bible Really Says About Abortion Posted: 02-27-06 08:39am
Not that i, personally, care what's in the
bible any more than I care what's in
cleveland telephone directory, but
apparently some people are interested.
This is a useful site: http://www.Mwillett.Or
g/atheism/abort.Htm
it says:
(by edgar pearlstein lincoln, nebraska)
the bible doesn't explicitly mention
abortion; so we have to be indirect, and
see what it says about some of the
arguments used in the dispute. Opponents
of abortion say that:
(a) human life, for moral purposes, begins
at conception. (biological or legal
definitions are not relevant here.)
(b) human life is sacred.
The idea that human life begins at
conception just isn't supported in the
bible, and sacredness of human life is
contradicted all over. So people who
consider abortion to be homicide might be
shocked to learn that they are thereby in
disagreement with the bible!
In several places the bible defines life
as breathing, and I found no place where
it defines life otherwise. For example,
genesis 2:7, which also defines the
entrance of the soul: “and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life, and man
became a living soul”. Other references
are ezekiel 37:10, I kings 17:17-21, and
james 2:26. Since a fetus doesn't
breathe, it isn't life and doesn't have a
soul, according to biblical definition.
Additional evidence that a fetus is
considered to be less than a human life is
that the biblical penalty for causing a
miscarriage is only a fine to be paid to
the woman's husband (i don't know what is
to be done if she doesn't have a
husband!), while for an injury to a born
person, it is life for life, eye for eye,
etc. (exodus 21:22-25, leviticus
24:17-21). Even an infant under the age
of one month is considered to be worth a
lot less than an adult (leviticus 27:1-8,
numbers 3:15,28,34,39,40,43). Also, the
god once punished david by killing his
newborn son (ii samuel 12:14-19); so
apparently the right-to-life of the infant
was not important.
The sanctity of life, born or
“unborn”, is denied in many places.
Two examples: “now go and smite amalek,
and utterly destroy all that they have,
and spare them not; but slay both man and
woman, infant and suckling....” (i
samuel 15:3), “they shall fall by the
sword: their infants shall be dashed in
pieces, and their women with child shall
be ripped up.” (hosea 13:16)
a lot of the discussion on abortion has to
do with “illegitimate” pregnancies.
An adulterous woman is to be killed
(lev.20:10); with no mention of an
exception if she is pregnant. And “a
health questions shall not enter into the
congregation of the lord; even unto the
tenth generation..” (deut. 23:2). So
according to the bible neither the fetus
nor the born child is worthy of much
consideration.
Note also that jesus talked of being born
again. He didn't say conceived again.
Some quotes that anti-abortion people use
out of context: “before I formed thee in
the belly I knew thee..” (jeremiah 1:5)
this is claimed to show that the
“soul” starts at conception. But
reading the entire chapter, including the
remainder of the sentence quoted, it's
clear that the god is talking specifically
to jeremiah, not to the entire human race,
as he is telling him that he was born to
be a prophet.
“...He hath blessed thy children within
thee.” (psalms 147:13). Again, this is
supposed to mean that human life begins
before birth; i.E. That a fetus is the
same as a child. But read the rest of the
psalm, and see that thee refers to the
city of jerusalem, not pregnant women!
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 02-27-06 11:00am
Horray! Nice post.
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-28-06 13:14pm
A. Scriptures about god's effecting
conception:
gen. 29:31 - "the lord opened her
(leah's) womb"
gen. 30:22 - "god opened her
(rachel's) womb"
judges 13:3-5 - "committed to god
from the womb"
ruth 4:13 - "the lord gave her
conception"
luke 1:15 - "filled with holy
spirit while yet in his mother's womb"
b. Scriptures about god's involvement
in forming unborn:
job 10:8-12 - "god knit me
together with bones and sinews and granted
me life"
psalm 127:3 - "the fruit of the
womb is a reward"
psalm 139:13-16 - "god weaved me
in my mother's womb"
eccl. 11:5 - "bones are formed in
the womb of the pregnant woman?
Isa. 49:1,5 - "the lord called me
from the womb...Formed me from the womb"
jere. 1:5 - "before I formed you
in the womb I knew you; before you were
born I
consecrated you"
luke 1:15 - "filled with holy
spirit while yet in his mother's womb"
luke 1:39-44 - "the baby leaped in
my womb for joy"
gal. 1:15 - "set me apart from my
mother's womb, and called me through
grace"
c. Scriptures to consider about
alleged "sacredness" or "sanctity" of
human life:
gen. 1:26,27 - "god said, 'let us
make man in our image...'"
psalm 8:3-8 - "god made man a
little lower than god"
d. Scriptures about sacrifice of
children:
lev. 20:1-5 - "if give offspring
to molech, shall be put to death"
deut. 18:10,12 - "there shall not
make son or daughter pass through the
fire"
psalm 106:37-40 - "sacrificed son
and daughters to demons...Anger of lord
was kindled"
ezek. 23:36-46 -
"abominations...Slaughtered children for
their idols"
e. Scriptures about miscarriage:
exod. 21:22-25 - "cause
miscarriage...Shall be fined; cause
injury...Life for life"
(some take as premature birth,
and "injury" referring to mother or
child.)
job 3:16 - "miscarriage which is
discarded"
f. Scriptures to consider if abortion
is homicide:
gen. 9:6 - "whoever shed's man's
blood, by man shall his blood be shed"
exod. 20:13 - "you shall not
homicide"
exod. 23:7 - "do not kill the
innocent or the righteous"
prov. 6:17 - "god hates hands
that kill innocent blood"
amos 1:13,14 - "god punished those
who ripped open the pregnant women of
gilead"
I peter 4:15 - "do not let any of
you suffer as a murderer"
g. Scriptures used to justify civil
disobedience
psalm 82:2-4 - "rescue the weak
and needy"
prov. 24:11,12 - "deliver those
who are being taken away to death"
prov. 31:8,9 - "open your mouth
for the dumb, for the rights of the
unfortunate"
h. Scriptures to consider about
conflict and civil disobedience:
eph. 6:12 - "our struggle is not
against flesh and blood, but against
rulers, powers..."
ii tim. 2:23-26 - "refuse
speculations that produce quarrels..."
I peter 2:12 - "keep your behavior
excellent among the gentiles"
I peter 3:8,9, - "let all be
harmonious...Not returning evil for evil
I peter 3:15 - "sanctify christ as
lord..Ready to make defense...With
gentleness
and reverence"
Of all the issues in our culture today,
surely abortion is one of the most
volatile. Perhaps no other issue has
raised so much debate and anguish, plus
time and monies spent by various
interested parties to educate to public to
their views on it. In the midst of
such a controversial issue, many simply
throw up their hands and vow to stay out
of it altogether. In the name of
freedom and under the guise of "it isn't
my business" many choose to look the other
way from this troubling issue, leaving the
decision in the hand of lawmakers,
doctors, and pregnant woman. Although
there are many different issues concerning
abortion, the following is designed to
focus on what the bible says about
abortion, and the consequences thereof.
Does god care?
What does god say about abortion? Do
the millions of abortions that have taken
place in this land bother him? Is a
fetus a "real person" in the eyes of god?
If so, where does that leave us?
If an unborn life is truly just a mere
mass of fetal tissue to god, we should
want to know. If he considers the
life of the woman more important than her
unborn child, we should want to know.
And if he does consider that unborn life a
"real person", and just as important as
the life of the mother that bears it, we
most certainly should want to know.
After all, we are all accountable to god
not only for our individual lives, but
also as a generation and a nation.
Thou shalt not kill
throughout the bible god has plenty to say
about the taking of an innocent life.
Most people in our nation, though they may
not be familiar with all of the ten
commandments, know that "thou shalt not
kill" is listed there somewhere. The
word "kill" in this instance, specifically
refers to "homicide"--a premeditated and
deliberate act of taking someone's life.
It is different than other forms of
taking a life, which could be accidental,
or in self-defense. God has different
laws regarding different sorts of death.
But he continually opposes and speaks
against homicide, especially homicide of
the innocent.
Do not pollute the land where you are.
Bloodshed pollutes the land and atonement
cannot be made for the land on which the
blood has been shed, except by the blood
of the one who shed it. Do not defile
the land where you live. Numbers
35:33-34
god's judgement against the killing of an
innocent life grows out of his love for
humankind. The crime of homicide is
not only an offense against the sanctity
of life, it is a pollutant upon the very
land we live. God wants to spare us
of the variety of ways this pollution is
manifested. When the land becomes
defiled with sin, people cry out "where is
god?" yet they refuse to take
responsibility for breaking his laws which
were only given to us for our protection
and good. Each sin that we commit is
not merely an isolated incident, but will
set off a chain reaction of other sins if
not dealt with. Since the
legalization of abortion for instance,
child abuse has increased over 1000%.
This is the exact opposite of what those
who legalized abortion thought it would do
since it was assumed that only children
who were initially unwanted were abused.
In psalm 106 god speaks specifically
against killing innocent children and
babies. He says of his people: they
mingled with the nations and adopted their
customs. They worshipped their idols
which became a snare to them. They
sacrificed their sons and their daughter
to demons. They shed innocent blood,
the blood of their sons and daughters whom
they sacrificed to the idols of canaan and
the land was desecrated by their blood.
Today we may scoff, or wonder in disbelief
how anyone, especially someone who claimed
to follow god, could sacrifice their child
to an idol or a demon. Yet, an idol
is anything that we worship before god.
Today, children are sacrificed to the
idols of selfishness, convenience,
"freedom," and ambition--sacrificed to the
very demonic powers that are behind such
idols. Times really haven't changed
that much. Human nature hasn't
changed, nor has satan's schemes against
that which god considered so precious that
he died to redeem it--human life.
When does life begin?
One may argue here that they agree that it
is wrong to homicide, but they still don't
see how a fetus necessarily qualifies as a
human being. Perhaps god doesn't feel
the same way about a very young fetus, as
he does an older fetus, a newborn, or a
50-year-old. It may be a different
issue altogether with him. Does the
bible say anything specifically about
unborn children?
In exodus 21:22 god gives a specific law
regarding social order for the israelites.
He stated that if two men were
fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus
causing her to give birth prematurely,
they must be fined according to any damage
done to the baby. The fine must be
paid in relation to the amount of damage
inflicted upon the child. If god
would make a law specifically referring to
the rights of the unborn, then surely the
unborn must mean something to him!
It has been stated if the womb had
windows, there would be no abortion.
As humans, we are not omnipresent and
cannot know the full scope of what each
human life is worth. We cannot dwell
in the womb with a fetus, nor can we see
it as it matures. But god can.
A scientific view
just 18 days after conception, the baby's
heart begins to beat. At six weeks,
brain waves can be measured. At eight
weeks the vital organs are functioning and
fingerprints have formed. At nine
weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel
pain. Over 700,000 abortions each
year are performed after this point in the
pregnancy. By the beginning of the
second month, the unborn child, small as
it is, has begun to look distinctly human,
though the mother may not even be aware
that she is pregnant! By the time the
baby is eleven weeks old, he or she
breaths (fluid), swallows, digests,
sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and
feels pain. Babies born prematurely
can survive outside the womb as young as
20-25 weeks old. Yet, all that is
necessary to make the baby a grown human
being is already there from the moment of
conception. All it needs is time to
mature.
Former surgeon general, Dr. C.
Everett koop stated "we now know when life
begins because the test-tube baby proves
that life begins with conception.
What do you have in the dish? An egg
and a sperm. What do you add to it to
get a baby? Nothing." though it is
wee, it is still a real person, just as a
crumb of bread is still real bread.
No one who has been given the gift of life
should dare despise the day of small
beginnings. Have we forgotten so
quickly that we were once as small?
"in the tiny, almost invisible thirty two
cell blastocyst--in that one gram or so of
tissue--there is a physical potential and
moral destiny unparalleled in our
universe. Next to it, a gram of
plutonium is a triviality: plutonium
cannot compose a symphony, cannot cure
cancer, cannot plan our course to the
stars". -bernard nathanson, m.D.
And former abortionist-
a spiritual view
god said to the prophet jeremiah, before I
formed you in the womb I knew you.
Before you were born I set you apart; I
appointed you as a prophet to the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5 god knew this man before
he was born. As he was forming in his
mother's womb god gave him his
personality, talents, and temperament.
If his mother had gotten an abortion, the
"fetal tissue" she aborted would have been
a real person named jeremiah; a mighty
prophet of god and the gift of god's voice
to the nations, though she would never
have known.
The lord hath called me from the womb:
from the bowels of my mother hath he made
mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 kjv
did not he who made me in the womb make
them? Did not the same one form us
within our mothers? Job 31:15
for you created my inmost being; you knit
me together in my mother's womb. I
praise you because I am fearfully and
wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14
the above verses are only a sampling of
the many biblical references we find to
life inside the mother's womb. From
them, it is clear that life begins when
god creates it, not at some later point in
time when it has grown to look like a
newborn. God does not judge things
according to their stage of development
the way humans tend to. According to
the above passages, even the tiniest
embryo is the subject of his love and
care. God sees each of our lives in
the realm of our total existence, whether
we are yet unborn, a young woman in the
prime of her life, or an old man on his
deathbed. He is patient with all of
us, longing to bring each one of us into
his maturity.
Do we look like god?
To wantonly destroy innocent human life is
a crime against god, and a rejection of
the truth that we were made in his image.
Everything in the universe belongs to
him anyway. The earth is the lord's,
and everything in it, the world and all
who live in it. Psalm 24:1 our own
lives are a precious gift given to us, but
ultimately we belong to god! We are
his possessions; we have merely been
granted stewardship over our lives,
talents, money, time, the earth we live on
and the things we "own." though children
pass through us they are not ours, anymore
that we are property of our parents.
Each of us has been given the gift of life
and freedom, for which we are responsible
and accountable to god. None of us
has the right to deny that same gift to an
unborn person. It is an honor to
carry that powerful force of another life
within our very bodies-- a life made in
the very image of god! (genesis
5:1-2)
god is no respecter of persons. If he
knew jeremiah in the womb, he knew you
too. Do you believe that god lovingly
fashioned you and loves you dearly?
Do you believe that he has had a plan for
your life from the beginning of time?
A plan that none other can fulfill in
quite the same way you can? That you
came to this earth "trailing clouds of
glory?" or do you believe in your heart
that you were a mere "accident" and that
god has no personal concern for you or
your life? Is it easier to believe
that you are just a highly evolved animal?
An animal (especially an undeveloped
one) may certainly be easier to dispose
of. It seems somehow even "natural,"
as the laws of nature lend themselves to
the survival of the strong and the
equipped. Yet it seems doubtful that
even an animal would come up with a way to
deliberately kill it's unborn offspring.
Even the jackals offer their breasts to
nurse their young, but my people have
become heartless like ostriches in the
desert. Lamentations 4:3
oh, let us turn from our heartlessness and
defend the sanctity of human life!
Out of respect for god, let us offer mercy
and compassion to every life around us,
born or unborn. Let us be givers of
life instead of takers of life.
Am I my brother's keeper?
Every 20 seconds another baby is aborted
in this country, yet very few seem to
notice. Statistically, one out of
every three of us will die by abortion,
and we will never know what we lost in
those lives. Our country goes along
its way leaving lawmakers in distant
buildings to decide how the carnage should
continue. We've bought into the lie
that those we dispose of are not real
people. It is the same old lie that
was used to keep slavery legal, and to
exterminate masses of peoples in
holocausts all over the world. We
should be able to see through it by now,
but as usual, most of us let circumstances
and the current cultural climate dictate
to us what is acceptable or not. Yet
god tells us to: rescue those being led
away to death, hold back those staggering
toward slaughter. If you say "but we
knew nothing of this," does not he who
weighs the heart perceive it? Does
not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to
what he has done? Proverbs 24:11
in our society today we face a myriad of
social problems as a result of our
hypocrisy. Most of us have had to
become somewhat doubleminded just to keep
a vestige of sanity. We put warnings
on cigarettes and alcohol, that their
consumption is dangerous to an unborn
child. Yet we deem it perfectly
legal, even "responsible" for a mother to
have a doctor poison that same child
inside her, or rip it to shreds with a
surgical instrument. We might charge
a man who kills a pregnant woman with a
double homicide, yet what if that woman
was on her way to the abortion clinic to
dispose of her baby anyway? Do we
then charge him with a single homicide?
Why do 21 states have legislation to
delay a death sentence imposed against a
pregnant woman who is guilty of a crime,
until after she delivers her baby? If
we really believed what we said about the
unborn child being a mere blob of tissue,
it would seem that no one would mind if
that baby died along with the mother in
the electric chair.
We wonder how respectable college kids can
throw their newborn baby into a dumpster,
yet what are we supposed to think?
We're the ones who told them that it is
irresponsible to raise a child at their
young age and that an "unwanted child"
(which is a fallacy) is better off dead.
They are not to blame as much as the
media, the lawmakers, the abortion
counselors, the doctors, and the voters.
When a woman can have an abortion on a
nine month old unborn child, and yet a
week later be tried for homicide if she
disposed of the child outside the womb
(which at that point, would seem to be a
much easier and practical way to dispose
of the baby) what are the young people of
this nation supposed to think? Do we
really have to wonder at the lack of
respect for human life that we see around
us?
Evil prevails when good men, in the name
of freedom, do nothing. Live as free
men, but do not use your freedom as a
cover-up for evil. I peter 2:16 very
few of us would argue that crack cocaine,
or rape should be legal simply because
people are going to do it anyway, yet that
is the argument that is applied to
abortion. As a nation, our morals and
ethics vacillate between honor and
convenience, integrity and greed. We
are slouching towards everything we have
stood against and hated from the
foundation of this country, yet we pave
the way with our apathy. This
doublemindedness has become a cancer
eating away at the very heart of our
nation.
History will speak of our abortion as a
mark of the absolute decadence of our era.
There will come a time when we will
look back on abortion with the same shame
we do now towards our evil treatment of
the american indians, and the blight of
slavery. We wonder why history
continues to repeat itself. It is
because evil starts in little ways--it
starts as a seemingly innocent thought in
the heart of man. Sin always seems
practical, necessary, or even "cute" in
it's initial stages. It is only in
hindsight that we can see just how
atrocious those massive exterminations
were and how they went against the very
core of what the united states was
supposed to be. Yet, we have no right
to condemn previous generations for the
same deeds we commit today. Then, as
now, the masses simply went along with
whatever was the popular opinion. In
regard to slavery, it was even argued that
the government didn't have a right to tell
people whether they could own slaves or
not... That it was a personal choice
to be made and that freedom of choice is
what our country is all about. Only
in that case they forgot the rights of one
whole people group. Sound familiar?
Then the lord said to cain, "where is your
brother abel?" "i don't know," he replied.
"am I my brother's keeper?" the lord
said. "what have you done?
Listen! Your brother's blood cries
out to me from the ground. Now you
are under a curse and driven from the
ground which opened it's mouth to receive
your brother's blood from your hand."
genesis 4:9-11
as a nation, we must repent for the
heartlessness we have displayed to the
most helpless members of our culture.
Though god is merciful, he is also just.
He cannot ignore the cries of the blood
that have soaked our ground and stained
our hands. We are bringing ourselves
under a curse, but do not have the eyes to
see it. We only see the fruit of that
curse and we wonder what went wrong.
Like cain, our ears have become deafened
to the cries of those we have murdered.
True freedom
there are too many of us who prefer to let
the media do our thinking for us.
Should we disagree, many of us are too
intimidated to ever speak out with
conviction. As we let time go by, our
godly convictions begin to slip away and
we become numb. Eventually, we may
even support that which we had earlier
condemned. This is called the
"searing of a conscience." it happened in
hitler's germany and it is happening
today. How can we bring a dead
conscience back to life? How can we
know the difference between right and
wrong? As was just established, we
cannot merely "listen to our heart" and
follow what seems best at the time.
Some of the most horrifying deeds in
history have been done by those who were
following whatever moral code was most
convenient at the time. Freedom is
not doing whatever suits our fancy at the
moment. That will only bring slavery
and sorrow to our souls. True freedom
is having the power to know what is right
and to choose accordingly. But how
can we choose, if we do not know? How
can we obtain true freedom?
You shall know the truth and the truth
shall set you free. John 8:32
we must cleanse our minds by the washing
with the water through the word.
(ephesians 5:26) god's word is the
bible--ancient, yet ageless and seething
with life. It will literally clean
our thinking and bring life to our
sin-deadened minds so we can see what he
sees and feel what he feels. It will
reveal our very thoughts to ourselves.
For the word of god is living and active.
Sharper than any double-edged sword it
penetrates even to dividing soul and
spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the
thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
respect for god, his creation, and his
holy word, is the only way we will ever
find true freedom. The fear of the
lord is the beginning of wisdom, but fools
despise wisdom and discipline.
Proverbs 1:7 wisdom and compassion cannot
be found outside of god for he is wisdom
and he is love. Long before heaven
and earth were made, and long after they
disappear, his word will still remain.
On the day of judgement abortion and
every other atrocity we have tried to
justify will be shown for the evil it is.
We must seek god now, while we have
the time to do it! Today is the day
of salvation.
It is not too late to repent and turn our
hearts back to the lord. We can bring
healing and life to this land that we love
if we will humble ourselves before god's
mighty right hand. If my people, who
are called by my name, and humble
themselves and pray and seek my face and
turn from their wicked ways, then I will
hear from heaven and will forgive their
sin and heal their land. Ii
chronicles 7:14
god loves you!
If you are planning an abortion, please
reconsider. Though your situation may
seem hopeless, god will work something
beautiful in your life if you trust and
obey him. Choosing to "remove" your
problem will only create new ones.
Shall I offer my firstborn for my
transgression, the fruit of my body for
the sin of my soul? Micah 6:7 you
will have to bear the guilt of your
abortion or else harden your heart to not
feel guilty. God loves both you and
your child very much, and if you feel
incapable of raising him or her, there are
thousands of couples who have waited years
for the chance to adopt a baby.
Though it may be difficult to give it
away, you will have given it the greatest
gift of all--life. As mother theresa
put it so simply "love means to be willing
to give until it hurts." give your child
to a family that will truly love it.
You can make the dreams of a childless
couple come true... And you can bless
the heart of god.
If you have already had an abortion,
please do not feel that this was written
only to bring you under guilt and
condemnation. What is done is done
and cannot be changed. God has your
child in heaven with him, and longs to
forgive you if you ask him to. Once
god forgives a sin, he literally forgets
it, and does not hold it against you any
longer! Please do not hold against
yourself what god has forgotten.
Forget the former things; do not dwell on
the past. See, I am doing a new
thing! Now it springs up; do you not
perceive it? I, even I am he who
blots out your transgressions for my own
sake, and remembers your sins no more.
Isaiah 43:18, 25. Receive his love,
for he loves you just as much as the child
you lost. He already took your sin
and bore it upon himself so you would not
have to bear the punishment, which would
be eternal separation from him. He
knows the agony you've gone through better
than any other, for he was there too, with
you. Open your life to him and let
him give you a crown of beauty instead of
ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise instead of the
spirit of despair. He will make you
into an oak of righteousness, a planting
of the lord for the display his splendor.
Isaiah 61:3
in conclusion, the words of god ring out
as clearly now as they did over 3,000
years ago:
this day I call heaven and earth as
witnesses against you that I have set
before you life and death, blessings and
curses. Choose life so that you and
your children may live, and that you may
love the lord your god, listen to his
voice and hold fast to him.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20
god will forgive you for homicide, if your
repentance is sincere.
Last edited by jimmyjackers on 02-28-06 13:44pm; edited 2 times in total
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Moo
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Posted: 02-28-06 13:33pm
Your/that interpretation of ex21:22 is
questionabble. I mentioned this on the
other thread.
"homicide" is decided upon by law -
abortion does not fall within this
definition
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Izzy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 883 Location: Earth
Posted: 02-28-06 15:23pm
However we are talking about gods law, not
mans laws.... Abortion is clearly and
undeniably considered homocide in the law
of god.
"thou shall not kill"
we have the writings of the 12 apostles in
the didache that supports this too
2:2 thou shalt not homicide a child by
abortion nor kill them when born
the sacredness of human life is constant
throughout the bible from the very
begining adam and eve were created in the
image of god
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Moo
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Posted: 02-28-06 15:30pm
Well, as has been discussed, there's only
one passage in the bible which actually
mentions the death of the fetus and that
differentiates betweens it's death and
that of the woman carrying it (i.E a
person).
The link provided doesn't work.
Is it only religion which determines your
stance on abortion or are there other
factors which have shaped your view?
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Izzy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 883 Location: Earth
Posted: 02-28-06 16:26pm
I had a good response for you but I lost
it when I went to post - so here is the
abridged version
the bible is not the authority of christ,
the apostolic church is
whoever listens to you listens to me! -
speak with voice of christ
so as the father sent me so am I now
sending you - all authority of christ
whatever you bind on eart will be bound in
heaven, whatever you loosen on earth will
be loosened in heaven - power to
legislate
christ didnt write any great legislative
paper for christians to follow instead he
gave that authority to the apostolic
church
the bible can say anything you want it to
say, but peter says "scripture is not a
matter for private interpretation" it
needs to be understood in light of the
teachings of christ, taught by his church
"whoever listens to you listens to me"
when the apostolic church says "thou shalt
not homicide a child by abortion nor kill
them when born" that is the true authority
of christ not the bible, the bibles
authority is granted it by the apostolic
church that gave us it.
"is it only religion which determines your
stance on abortion or are there other
factors which have shaped your view?"
it was my stance on abortion that helpped
me understand how christianity was the way
the trtuh and the life
biological facts on when a human beings
life begins, how abortion kills that human
being and how I believed that killing
innocent and defenceless human beings is
wrong is a major factor in most pro life
peoples view on abortion...Christian or
not.
"the link provided doesn't work."
decapitalize the link
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Moo
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Posted: 02-28-06 16:40pm
Different religions interpret the bible
differently, however, even christian
translations of the old testement take the
stance that if the pregnancy is miscarried
but the woman ok = fine, woman dies =
capital punishment.
Not everyone follows religion, not
everyone follows your religion. I make up
my own mind about things instead of just
accepting them without question.
" "thou shalt not homicide a child by
abortion nor kill them when born""
children aren't "mu.Rdered" by abortion,
you shouldn't use it in ths context s it's
entirely inaccurate. If you switch the
"homicide" and "kill" then it makes
sense.
"it was my stance on abortion that helpped
me understand how christianity was the way
the trtuh and the life"
were you pro-life before you were
christian?
"biological facts on when a human beings
life begins, how abortion kills that human
being and how I believed that killing
innocent and defenceless human beings is
wrong is a major factor in most pro life
peoples view on abortion...Christian or
not."
pro-choicers do not deny human biology,
pro-choicers d no deny the procedures used
in abotion.
(also, i'll let slide the "innocent"
comment - i've written it somewhere
elsebut basically it's used purely for
emotional manipulation - a fetus cannot be
'innocent', it literally doesn't make
sense - but it's often used by pro-lifers
so there you have it)
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sandyallen
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Jimmyjackers Posted: 02-28-06 18:43pm
You just seem to be rambling on without
much common sense or reality!
Please don't take me wrong, I have read
the bible but not yours as yours is very
judgemental!
You have gone from killing to homicide in
having as abortion, that is truly, untrue,
all you are doing is terminating a
pregnancy because their is generally a
good enough reason that does not concern
you, you do not understand because you do
not try to understand, again, you are not
walking in this females shoes so therefore
you do not know what hell she is going
through, you mentioned freedom of choice,
well there it is. You talk about taking
of innocent lives how about 911 and some
of these wars such as iraq, alot of
innocent lives were taken there too.
Innocent lives are taken daily with car
accidents beatings shootings, robberies
and the natural process such as just
getting out of bed, miscariages.
Do not try to put women on a guilt trip
who have had or are going to have an
abortion as as you said before, it is
there choice and they have there reasons
and again you are not here to judge
anyone.
Good luck!
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Tylanas
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Posted: 03-01-06 10:29am
I do want to thank jimmeny for his
extensive research. These are the types
of informative posts that actually help
move along our debates!
On an off topic, I did notice that the
bible you sourced from says "god said, let
us
create man in our image." are you using
the new scholarly version, and not the
king james version approved by the pope?
If so, I commend you, for the newest
translations reveal many "disturbing"
things that the church has been trying to
hide for a thousand years.
Moving on... The sections you divided the
quotes into was helpful, not only for
clarity in comprehension but also for
another reason: these categories don't
necessarily relate directly to each other,
or even to the same topic. Much
interpretation of the scripture depends
heavily on where it was found; one cannot
simply pick and choose phrases that one
likes. Context is extremely imortant.
I do of course have an argument with god's
word through mankind being law, because I
don't believe in .God. At least, not the
same kind of god you believe in... So why
should I have to listen to rules made by
his fanclub? I'm not anarchist; I totally
believe we need a government and rules and
laws; but these laws need to be questioned
constatly for their legitimiacy, which is
what the supreme court is for:
interpretation of the law.
I don't believe in "evil" as sourced from
the devil; the capacity to do wrong
resides in all of us; but something is
only wrong when seen in the light of
someone else's eyes. Conversely, good is
also entirely dependant on your
perspective on things. I mean wrong and
right in their ethical sense, not in a
lesser sense, like correct and incorrect.
Right and wrong carry with them an ethical
backing.
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Izzy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 883 Location: Earth
Posted: 03-01-06 18:01pm
"different religions interpret the bible
differently"
those who interperate the bible
differently to the church that canonised
and wrote the bible, do so at their own
peril. The only true interpretation is
that of the church that gave us the bible,
no one else has the authority or the
ability to interpreate it correctly.
"not everyone follows religion, not
everyone follows your religion."
if they follow the full bible they follow
my religion, they may not understand the
bible correctly, they may oppose certain
teachings of my religion by lack of
understanding, however by faith they are
of the same religion.
"i make up my own mind about things
instead of just accepting them without
question. "
so do i, I accept the teachings of the
church only because I considered the
question of jesus' words to his
apostles.
"you shouldn't use it in ths context "
that is the teaching of st peter, st
james, st mathew, st john and all the
other tweleve it is a direct quote from
"the teaching of the 12" known as the
didache, do you still contend that I
should post in that context when
discussing religious teaching or that I
shouldnt listen to the 12 apostles
teachings about abortion or that it has no
rlevence to the christian perspective on
abortion.
"were you pro-life before you were
christian? "
yes.
"a fetus cannot be 'innocent'"
i guess its guilty then?
"so imperfect men get to inteprete god's
work @@
funny how a perfect being can't even get
it's word out correctly "
jesus' promise goes like this...
Simon you are rock (peter) and upon this
rock (peter)i will build my church and the
gates of hell shall not prevail against
it.. Whateve you bind on earth shall be
bound in heaven, whatever you loosen on
earth shall be loosend on earth.. The
holy spirit, whom the father will send in
my name, will teach you all things and
remind you of everything I have told you.
The holy spirit will teach you what must
be said. When the spirit of truth comes,
he will guide you into all the truth. For
he will not speak on his own, but he will
speak whatever he hears. He will also
declare to you what is to come.
Imperfect men, protected from fallible
teaching by the jesus christs promise.
The perfect ones perfect delivery of his
perfect word.
" did notice that the bible you sourced
from says "god said, let us create man in
our image." are you using the new
scholarly version, and not the king james
version approved by the pope? "
the king james version is certainly not an
approved biblical translation.
As for you pi$$ poor attempt at knocking
the bible for being so called "anti woman"
you failed to understand it or simply
selected to not put it in context..
"so god created man in his own image;
he created them in the image of god;
he created them male and female."
"context is extremely imortant."
like understanding it in context of the
church that authored it.
"something is only wrong when seen in the
light of someone else's eyes"
so your saying there is no right and there
is no wrong only individual or relative
truth, pedophile is not wrong in their own
eyes, so what right have those who view it
as wrong, condemn or pass judgement on
them... I simply disagree... Right and
wrong are objective to the greater good
for mankind and I believe god wants what
is best for mankind. However I respect
your beliefs, and I accept that many
things that are viewed as wrong by
christians should and for the most part
are left down to the individual to decide
for themselves... God did after all give
us freedom of choice for good (what god
wants) or for evil (what he dosnt) however
when someone is being unjust to another, I
as many other christians feel we are duty
bound to defend those suffering
persecution, that we must be a voice for
the alienated and oppressed abortion is a
prime example of grave injustice to human
beings. No one has the right to kill
another human being, killing human beings
is something we will fight against not
that we want to take away your freedom to
choose but that we want to protect the
vulnrable, persecuted and oppresed
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Moo
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Posted: 03-02-06 07:14am
Quote:
"a fetus cannot
be 'innocent'"
i guess its guilty
then?
no, it can be either, just as it cannot be
unemployed, lazy or a whole host of other
adjectives.
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Tylanas
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Posted: 03-02-06 08:56am
moo
wrote:
Quote:
"a fetus cannot
be 'innocent'"
i guess its guilty
then?
no, it can be either, just as it cannot be
unemployed, lazy or a whole host of other
adjectives.
exactly; a storm is not evil, a tiger is
not evil, a gazell is not innocent. They
just are.
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Moo
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Posted: 03-02-06 09:07am
That was supposed to say it cannot be
either!
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Izzy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 883 Location: Earth
Posted: 03-02-06 09:09am
So one unborn child can not be active and
kicking a lot, and another can not be not
active and lazy.... Forgive me if I
disagree.
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Moo
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Posted: 03-02-06 09:18am
Disagree all you will, the word "innocent"
is used for emotional manipulation. The
fact is that a fetus cannot be innocent,
the word doesn't fit
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jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 03-02-06 13:53pm
moo
wrote:
disagree all you will, the
word "innocent" is used for emotional
manipulation. The fact is that a fetus
cannot be innocent, the word doesn't
fit
in•no•cent (ĭn'ə-sənt)
pronunciation
adj.
1. Uncorrupted by evil, malice, or
wrongdoing
a foetus is innocent.
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Moo
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Posted: 03-02-06 15:22pm
Unemployed
adjective
not having a job that provides money
a fetus fits the defintion of unemployed
too :roll:
it's not merely about definitions,
language is about the correct usage for
the terms and neither can be applied to
the fetus.
A fetus cannot be 'corrupt', it's not a
person, it doesn't have the capabilities
to do so, is this honestly that difficult
to understand??
"oh no jimmy don,t you know that the fetus
is just a parasitic killer shock horror"
is there any need for the sarcasm? If you
actually understand what's being discussed
it's about the application of adjectives
to a fetus that shouldn't be applied.
Why would anyone think a fetus is a
"killer"? They wouldn't because it
doesn't have the capabilities. Parasitic,
it is in a parasitic relationship with the
woman (.N.O i'm not calling a fetus a
parasite).
Oh, I see. You decided that since it
cannot be referred to accurately as
"innocent" that you'd turn it on it's head
:roll: wonderful point
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jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 03-02-06 18:24pm
skar
wrote:
oh no jimmy don,t you know
that the fetus is just a parasitic killer
shock horror
exactly! When it suits the argument the
foetus is a thief stealing resources,
guilty of a crime worthy of death, but it
all depends on the argument they wish to
discuss, in this case the foetus is not
innocent because they say it is not a
person.
So if it is not innocent for the reasons
stated, it is neither guilty of taking
resources.
