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alternativethinker

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Why Does Personhood Matter? And Other Questions... Posted: 03-05-06 09:59am


Why does it matter that an unborn child not have what you would call personhood? Is not that unborn life still alive? Why does it matter what you call the unborn life inside of a mother? Is not the unborn life as a human life enough to make worthy of the chance to live? How can you possibly say that an unborn child is a part of a womans body? Why does a woman have the right to excercise bodily autonomy when she is incapable or unwilling to excercise bodily autonomy in her sexual choices? Why is the purely elective abortion not homicide when there is absolutely no reason that the child could not be carried to term? Is not life under any circumstances with all of its potential positive outcomes better than certain death by abortion? Please read my blog site as well. Http://acatholicforamer ica.Blogspot.Com/

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Re: Why Does Personhood Matter? And Other Questions...
Posted: 03-05-06 11:26am

alternativethinker wrote:

why does it matter that an unborn child not have what you would call personhood? Is not that unborn life still alive?

no one denies it's alive. Personhood matters because it's the concept by which rights are conferred, it matters because that human is now an independant and existing by it's own right.

alternativethinker wrote:

why does it matter what you call the unborn life inside of a mother? Is not the unborn life as a human life enough to make worthy of the chance to live?

if it doesn't matter then why can you not use the correct terms (i.E zygote/embryo/fetus)?
It's nothing about the degree of "human - ness" of the fetus, it's about the .W.O.M.A.N

alternativethinker wrote:

how can you possibly say that an unborn child is a part of a womans body?

i don't say that, however, surely you are aware that the fetus cannot survive .W.I.T.H.O.U.T thw womans body. It needs her body to exist

alternativethinker wrote:

why does a woman have the right to excercise bodily autonomy when she is incapable or unwilling to excercise bodily autonomy in her sexual choices?

because sex doesn't automatically mean pregnancy, because contraception fails

alternativethinker wrote:

why is the purely elective abortion not not a nice act when there is absolutely
no reason that the child could not be carried to term?

homicide applies to persons, it applies to those who do not need anothers body to even exist. If the woman doesn't want to host the pregnancy for 9months then there .I.S a reason why it cannot be carried to term - pregnancy isn't all about the fetus you know

alternativethinker wrote:

is not life under any circumstances with all of its potential positive outcomes better than certain death by abortion?

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Posted: 03-05-06 11:39am


You coverd everything that I would say :)

Meandering Away

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Re: Why Does Personhood Matter? And Other Questions...
Posted: 03-06-06 03:09am

alternativethinker wrote:

why does it matter that an unborn child not have what you would call personhood? Is not that unborn life still alive?

to most sane people personhood makes no difference, which is why there will always be objections to things like abortion and slavery [ slaves were classed as none persons ]

Quote:

why does it matter what you call the unborn life inside of a mother? Is not the unborn life as a human life enough to make worthy of the chance to live?

to dehumanize the fetus, the only place I have heard it called a fetus, embryo or zygote is from pro choicers, in 37 years and 8 pregnancys I have never heard it called them names in the real world only on the net by pro choice.

Quote:

how can you possibly say that an unborn child is a part of a womans body?

it is part of her body but that alone does not give them the right to have that child killed, can I kill someone because they are living in my house claiming benefits off my tax, they are living off me and could not live without me, so can I kill them.?

Quote:

why does a woman have the right to excercise bodily autonomy when she is incapable or unwilling to excercise bodily autonomy in her sexual choices?

contraception is not 100% effective and has for abstinence, never going to happen, better contraception and free and available contraception, better sex ed would be a bloody start.

Quote:

why is the purely elective abortion not not a nice act when there is absolutely
no reason that the child could not be carried to term?

Is not life under any circumstances with all of its potential positive outcomes better than certain death by abortion?

no abortion is nice, whether elective or because of medical problems, some are needed, not all life is worth living, certain pain and short life are they worth putting the child through, when it would be kinder for that child to go whilst it has no sense of pain.

Quote:

please read my blog site as well.

Http://acatholicforamer ica.Blogspot.Com/

sorry but religion has no part in abortion debate, you has a catholic should know that to each individual the bible means different things, has different answers to each persons problems, so can be used for both sides.

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Re: Why Does Personhood Matter? And Other Questions...
Posted: 03-06-06 08:24am

cowboys wrote:

wrong, it has nothing to do with "dehumanizing" the fetus, it's about using the correct terms and not manipulating words to aid your cause. Yes, most people will call their fetus a baby before it's born, I called my fetus peanut - it wasn't a peanut anymore than it is a baby but people do attach emotion to their fetuses.

Quote:

you could kick them out of your house, just as I can remove a fetus from my body. If the person cannot survive without your house it is not your problem.

Quote:

contraception is not 100% effective and has for abstinence, never going to happen, better contraception and free and available contraception, better sex ed would be a bloody start.

agreed (although contraception is free here sex ed needs to be drastically improved)

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Posted: 03-06-06 10:38am

moo wrote:

i called my fetus peanut - it wasn't a peanut anymore than it is a baby but people do attach emotion to their fetuses.

there is the perfect example of what I was saying, why did you give it a special name when you were pregnant yet when arguing for it to be aborted you dehumanize it.

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Posted: 03-06-06 10:48am

cowboys wrote:

there is the perfect example of what I was saying, why did you give it a special name when you were pregnant yet when arguing for it to be aborted you dehumanize it.

i was saying that just because someone attaches emotion to the fetus doesn't make it anything other than a fetus (and it's not about "dehumanizing" it, it's about leaving the emotion away and acknowledging what it is)

(and I don't have children, btw)

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Posted: 03-06-06 11:01am

moo wrote:

cowboys wrote:

there is the perfect example of what I was saying, why did you give it a special name when you were pregnant yet when arguing for it to be aborted you dehumanize it.

yet you said this

moo wrote:

i called my fetus

so my sympathys on your loss, was it a miscarrage.

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Posted: 03-06-06 11:17am


I have had one miscarriage and one abortion

jimmyjackers

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Posted: 03-06-06 13:35pm

moo wrote:

i have had one miscarriage and one abortion

one was natural and one was deliberate.

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Posted: 03-06-06 13:58pm

jimmyjackers wrote:

one was natural and one was deliberate.

yes. Did I say different???

Quote:

which came first?

the miscarriage

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Posted: 03-06-06 23:19pm

bahahahahaha123 wrote:

moo wrote:

Quote:

which came first?

the miscarriage

how is the fundie going to blame the spontaneous abortion on the elective abortion now?

one was natural and one was deliberate.

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Posted: 03-06-06 23:27pm

bahahahahaha123 wrote:

moo wrote:

Quote:

which came first?

the miscarriage

how is the fundie going to blame the spontaneous abortion on the elective abortion now?

yeah, i'd like to see that. Join me in ignoring him like I did jillian? It worked; and the two of us actually agree on things now.

Meandering Away

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Posted: 03-07-06 02:37am

eiri wrote:

bahahahahaha123 wrote:

moo wrote:

Quote:

which came first?

the miscarriage

how is the fundie going to blame the spontaneous abortion on the elective abortion now?

yeah, i'd like to see that. Join me in ignoring him like I did jillian? It worked; and the two of us actually agree on things now.

how about we ignore the two biggest shytestirrers on here you and the freak bahahaha123, just how many times do you lot need to attack and try to immaturely insult someones belief, when you two grow up to accept other people do not want to hear your hate filled messages then maybe just maybe you will get to debate, I doubt you will ever be mature enough.By the way eiri religious hatred is now illegal so watch your potty mouth.

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Posted: 03-07-06 10:03am

cowboys wrote:

eiri wrote:

bahahahahaha123 wrote:

moo wrote:

Quote:

which came first?

the miscarriage

how is the fundie going to blame the spontaneous abortion on the elective abortion now?

yeah, i'd like to see that. Join me in ignoring him like I did jillian? It worked; and the two of us actually agree on things now.

hahah .X.D

i don't hate christians silly, you all hate me! So! Why don't you be careful, hmn?

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Posted: 03-07-06 10:05am

skar wrote:

no but it is illegal for you to let your hubby have sex your son so you can spend the time on here you messing around sick nerd no wonder you have nothing against the homosexual your let your hubby practise on your son every night messing around sick freak

i don't even think bhaha's married, or has children.

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Posted: 03-07-06 10:10am

skar wrote:

no she just pimps her sons arse out instead

you need to shut up, you fucking sick whore! Both of you! You're fucking disgusting!! I don't give a sh*t who's right or wrong! You both need to have more respect for your own children, and for others!

Talking about child molestation, rape, incest; I don't care if you're trying to "out-insult" each other. If your children ever saw any of this, they'd be scarred for life.

Wake up to what the hell you're doing.

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Posted: 03-07-06 11:23am

eiri wrote:

cowboys wrote:

eiri wrote:

bahahahahaha123 wrote:

moo wrote:

Quote:

which came first?

the miscarriage

how is the fundie going to blame the spontaneous abortion on the elective abortion now?

yeah, i'd like to see that. Join me in ignoring him like I did jillian? It worked; and the two of us actually agree on things now.

hahah .X.D

i don't hate christians silly, you all hate me! So! Why don't you be careful, hmn?

one thing I am not a christian and I have yet to see anyone post hatefilled posts accusing your priests of raping children or calling all buddists psycho hate filled names like you have, so there is religious intolerance and inciting religious hatred by you, but from the other posts where your sick twisted have sex wit friend accused me of all sorts you said nothing, you just let it ride but oh boy when my wife started back at her you defended her and attacked my wife doing it scumbag hypocrite.

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Posted: 03-07-06 21:15pm

cowboys wrote:

eiri wrote:

cowboys wrote:

eiri wrote:

bahahahahaha123 wrote:

moo wrote:

Quote:

which came first?

the miscarriage

how is the fundie going to blame the spontaneous abortion on the elective abortion now?

yeah, i'd like to see that. Join me in ignoring him like I did jillian? It worked; and the two of us actually agree on things now.

hahah .X.D

i don't hate christians silly, you all hate me! So! Why don't you be careful, hmn?

my mother is christian, and I don't hate her. Many of my friends are christian, and I don't hate them. Guess what? I get frustrated when close-minded people like jimmycracker don't open their minds to the real world. And guess what? Christian preists did molest little boys. To my knowledge, no buddhist priests have. I only told the truth. I know, it's annoying isn't it?

And if you didn't notice, I hopped on this bandwagon once you sick idiots accused each other of fucking your own children.

It is sick, unethical and you both really have gone off the deep end.

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Posted: 03-09-06 15:07pm

eiri wrote:

cowboys wrote:

eiri wrote:

cowboys wrote:

eiri wrote:

bahahahahaha123 wrote:

moo wrote:

Quote:

which came first?

the miscarriage

how is the fundie going to blame the spontaneous abortion on the elective abortion now?

yeah, i'd like to see that. Join me in ignoring him like I did jillian? It worked; and the two of us actually agree on things now.

hahah .X.D

i don't hate christians silly, you all hate me! So! Why don't you be careful, hmn?

bangkok, thailand -- buddhist monks who allegedly murdered people, enjoyed sex with women and, in a macabre ritual, roasted a dead baby have wreaked hell on thai society and its saffron-robed clergy.

On monday (october 30), police arrested a buddhist abbot for allegedly killing a woman whose body was found a week earlier inside a septic tank at a neighbor's home.

Police seized abbot adhikan arn wattanadhammo, 46, in petchabun town while he reportedly tried to burn bloodstained clothing and destroy a ring inscribed with the dead woman's surname.

"buddhist leaders face major crisis of faith," warned the respected nation newspaper in an editorial.

"there was the monk who roasted dead babies in order to collect their oil to be used in spurious magical ceremonies," the editorial added. "and then there was the monk who committed necrophilia in coffins in his temple.

"these are but two of the most bizarre incidences in recent years which have caused the monkhood to suffer a serious loss of credibility." the paper lamented, "barely a week goes by without some kind of monastic scandal."

it demanded punishment for all monks who commit "blatant fraud and theft" by using donated funds to finance disreputable lifestyles.

The latest abbot-linked homicide comes during a week of widespread media coverage showing a different abbot being arrested and disrobed for allegedly having sex with several women, while masquerading as a special forces colonel.

In that case, abbot thammathorn wanchai denied committing a sex crime within the clergy, and said he was simply visiting female friends.

By coincidence, he was wearing a uniform to express respect to the military's spirits, he claimed.

"it made me happy to dress as an officer," the abbot was quoted as saying.

Thanong khanthong, a columnist, warned such scandals are "holding the thai faith up to ridicule."

referring to the uniform-wearing abbot, the columnist added, "he was part of a 'chivas regal gang' who liked to drink the expensive scotch whisky before giving sermons.

"at his private residence, police found pornographic material, lingerie and condoms -- apparently his excellency wanchai was not totally careless about aids," thanong said.

On oct. 23, the abbot was filmed driving his mercedes out of his temple at night, stopping to don a uniform of the special warfare command, with army signals insignia, and pulling up at a house where two women later arrived by taxi. The trio stayed overnight.

The next morning, he was filmed taking the women to a restaurant before they all returned for another overnight at the same pad.

"get out of the car," a police officer demanded the following day, when the abbot tried to cruise away.

Police arrested him, and yanked his green uniform open to reveal his orange robe underneath -- all on nationwide on tv.

Wanchai, 43, had been in the monkhood for about 14 years, and an abbot since 1991. He had received huge donations from leading thai officials and others.

"he often came to the house at night, and always entertained female guests," crime suppression police colonel thawee sodsong said. "he went out virtually every night."

thawee said the abbot could face up to five years imprisonment for impersonating a military officer.

In an extremely rare display of ire within thailand's buddhist congregation, about 500 residents who lived around wanchai's temple refused on oct. 26 to give alms to any of his temple's monks, after seeing television coverage of the abbot being defrocked on oct. 25.

As a result of the devotees' boycott, about 30 monks at the temple in provincial suphan buri town had to make do with whatever food they collected in their alms bowls earlier in the week, from their traditional morning rounds.

Thailand, meanwhile, is still reeling from the antics of yet another monk, caught on camera wearing a wig and enjoying a nightlife of loud karaoke singing, boozing and other taboo acts.

His shaved eyebrows -- de rigueur for all thai buddhist monks -- reportedly betrayed abbot pativet viset. He also denied wrongdoing but resigned on october 20, a few days after his alleged hijinks.

Thailand's late meditation master luang pho chah supatto wrote that abstaining from sex "is the monks' biggest obstacle." one of the most unusual meditations to knock-out a monk's sex drive is "corpse contemplation."

monks purchase crime-scene news photographs of horribly dismembered, bloated or decaying human corpses and concentrate on them.

The cheap, forensic photographs are sold in buddhist icon shops for this meditation.

Cartoon versions depict, for example, a woman in a bikini next to her skeleton. Such technique stresses all humans will soon rot in unpleasant decay. A learned monk is supposed to perceive a sexy female's shape as merely a temporary illusion.

Angry chanting, however, is being voiced against other buddhist abbots as well.

In september, an abbot was investigated by the education ministry and religious affairs department for amassing a collection of expensive vintage cars instead of renouncing material possessions.

Abbot viboon pattanakit also faced inquiries from the aged abbots of thailand's sangha council on buddhism.

He shrugged and said he used donations to buy more than 60 cars in an altruistic plan -- to open a museum which would benefit the temple.

In 1996, thailand's freakiest buddhist monk roasted a dead baby to extract "magical" oil, which dripped from its charred corpse. Police arrested harn raksajit, popularly known as aer, after publication of a photograph showing how he allegedly grilled the tiny victim.

Aer boasted he broiled the baby to create a much-feared babyish ghost known as kumarn tong, who is widely believed to possess powerfully hypnotic, manipulative abilities.

Aer insisted one of his devotees found a nine-month-old, apparently still-born baby near the temple in a black garbage bag, which was being chewed on by a dog.

The devotee brought it to aer, asked the monk to cremate it, and paid him 20 us dollars for expenses, aer added. The baby's mother was never found.

Aer, 35, was ultimately defrocked for committing an indecent act with a corpse, and failing to report a death.

About 95 percent of thailand's 65 million citizens are buddhists. Gorgeous "wat" temples shelter ornate giant statues of buddha, and other revered icons, virtually everywhere in this devout southeast asian nation. More than 400,000 monks and novices live in thailand's 40,000 temples. Most of them obey strict tenets, which for monks include never touching women or intoxicants, because they distract one's focus away from spiritual enlightenment.

Wealth must also be shunned, in an effort to achieve "detachment" from desires. In thailand, homosexuals, criminals, handicapped people or anyone infected with disease or in debt, cannot be ordained as a monk, the clergy's rules state.

Worshippers anxious for good luck, meanwhile, are thrilled when a monk indicates a number which they hope may win an upcoming lottery.

But some monks, after receiving food donated by devotees each morning, have sacrilegiously dumped it from their alms bowls into big plastic bags, and later sold the food to street vendors.

Other priests have grown wealthy from wheeling and dealing in religious icons, good luck amulets, and magical blessings.

They dwell in chauffeured luxury.

-ends-

richard s. Ehrlich

asia correspondent animists@ yahoo.Com bangkok, thailand

eiri wrote:

to my knowledge, no buddhist priests have. I only told the truth. I know, it's annoying isn't it?

you need to read up on the crimes of buddhist priests, before you make statements like that.

It’s annoying isn't it?