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Fasttricky

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Pro Choice And Pro Life
Posted: 05-18-06 21:46pm

Much of the public debate about abortion is dominated by extremists. Advocates on either side argue as if they had the whole truth. For one side, it is simply homicide. For the other side, it is a matter of a woman having control over her reproductive capacities. Some pro-life proponents identify the fetus as an "unborn child." some pro-choice supporters minimize the moral status of the fetus. The easy division of people into pro-life and pro-choice camps shows how complex issues are reduced to simple labels and slogans.

The emergence of new life is a continuous process that proceeds over a period of nine months. Designating a specific point at which a potential person becomes an actual person is impossible. It is not simply the question as to whether human life is present from conception on. Certainly life processes are taking place, and it is human life we are talking about. The question is when a complete person emerges with the fundamental rights that persons have. No answer is fully satisfactory. The general rule that the further along in the process, the stronger must be the justification for abortion may be correct. But this principle offers little exact guidance. This fact points to the strength of the conservative view that conception itself is the point beyond which no interference is permissible. However, not to recognize the difference between a freshly fertilized egg and a one year-old child is unconvincing.

Several conclusions follow.

(1) it would help if both sides recognized the complexity of the problem. Greatly to be desired is humility along with an recognition that those on the other side are not necessarily lacking in insight or integrity. The whole truth is many-sided and full of ambiguities. It cannot be reduced to a matter of simple right and wrong.

(2) the only completely satisfactory solution to the abortion problem is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Once an undesired conception occurs, an emergency arises that introduces complexities, difficulties, and compromises one would prefer to avoid but cannot.

(3) some abortions may be justified, but all abortions are to be regretted and involve a compromise of values.

(4) justification for abortion must always be serious and never trivial. Its casual or routine use as a backup for contraception is indefensible.

(5) the slogan that abortion should be legal, safe, and rare is probably as good a compromise as the situation allows.

(6) pro-life advocates ought to promote effective birth control methods. Pro-choice advocates ought to encourage sexually responsible behavior, including abstinence. What if they joined hands in a common crusade against unwanted pregnancies?

Even if we got agreement that abortion ought to be legal, the problems would not end there. Should unmarried teenage girls be compelled to secure parental permission? Regardless of which side the law takes, some good will result, and some harm will be done. Should a compromise be made so that a teenage girl, lacking parental consent, could seek an exception from a judge? That might help, but the applicant is then subject to whatever biases a particular judge may have, as well as to the delay and burden of seeking legal aid.

No easy resolution of the abortion problem exists. A reasonable compromise is made difficult by the zealots on both sides who insist on defining the issue in extremist terms and who insist on all or nothing. In the middle are a large body of citizens who are troubled by abortion but who think that to make it illegal would have even more disastrous consequences. We need to hear more from these more balanced voices that are sensitive to the conflict of values involved. The views of americans have not changed significantly over the past quarter of a century. Let us resolve this issue since further debate is not likely to change enough minds to shift the balance of political power. It would help if the opposing parties would engage in conversations based on mutual respect to work out a tolerable compromise that neither likes but that is appropriate for such an agonizing dilemma. Alas, in today's "in your face" climate, the prospect for that seems rather dim.
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Tylanas

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Posted: 05-18-06 22:34pm

You know, I do agree with everything you've said; and I try very hard to maintain a position during debate in which I am willing to compromise or admit a point to the other side. And as for your guidelines; I agree with them entirely.
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Cambion

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Posted: 05-20-06 08:37am

You make a lot of good points, but there is no way on earth pro-lifers and pro-choicers would join forces, so to speak. I've noticed a lot of pro-lifers have a major anti-woman attitude, which is why they try to destroy womens' rights one by one, including one of her most important rights. I agree that, instead of barking at pro-choicers, pro-lifers should show their respect for life and try to prevent unwanted ones from existing by advocating better forms of contraception. Of course, it was a fundie pro-life extremist who whined about emergency contraception being available.

I agree with your guidelines as well, fasttricky. Unfortunately, pro-lifers and pro-choicers are destiend to never understand each other.
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nightangel73

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Posted: 05-20-06 08:41am

cambion wrote:
pro-lifers should show their respect for life and try to prevent unwanted ones from existing by advocating better forms of contraception.



we do. And I am in favor of sterilizing young women who ask for that.
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Cambion

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Posted: 05-20-06 08:58am

That's good to hear, nightangel - you many be an exception. I've read a lot of pro-life propaganda, and many pro-lifers are anti-sterilization and against plan b because it "prevents god from performing one of his miracles"...Or something equally retarded..
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diamond splinter

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Posted: 05-20-06 10:00am

cambion wrote:
that's good to hear, nightangel - you many be an exception. I've read a lot of pro-life propaganda, and many pro-lifers are anti-sterilization and against plan b because it "prevents god from performing one of his miracles"...Or something equally retarded..



do you ever post with civility? Each and everyone of your posts that I have read always include an attack most of them unfounded and uneducated you claim that pro lifers are the ones in the wrong yet it isn't us aborting .B.A.B.I.E,s. For our own conveniance now is it.
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Carifairy

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Posted: 05-20-06 18:07pm

The main problem I have with your statements is that aboritons should be regretted... Ummm I have had 3 due to birth control failure, and I am in the healthcare field and give birth control education, so I especially know how it works.. I do not and will not regret my abortions, that just seems absurd to me. No I do nor regret my abortions, I regret getting pregnant and my birth control failing!

Abortion is a back up for when birth control fails, it has no other purpose except to terminate fetally deformed feti, and for women who have medical reasons..That's what abortion is for, to terminate a pregnancy. I am sorry control is not 100%!!!!! If it was then could be very rare because of the perfection fo birth control, but nothing is perfect.
I work in aboriton clinics, each woman has her own story and her own life, I consider none of it trivial.
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Cambion

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Posted: 05-20-06 18:58pm

Quote:
do you ever post with civility? Each and everyone of your posts that I have read always include an attack most of them unfounded and uneducated you claim that pro lifers are the ones in the wrong yet it isn't us aborting .B.A.B.I.E,s. For our own conveniance now is it.


you're more dense than I thought. My posts state my opinions, just as everyone else's posts in this forum state their opinions - excuse me for defending my views. And just because my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean i'm wrong. Get it through your head that pro-life opinions are not facts. Besides, I was speaking in terms of women's rights, and access to safe and legal abortion is a woman's most important right, even if she plans never to use it. Some women may abort for convenience, but others abort for medical reasons or personal reasons. In any case, i'd rather see unwanted kids aborted than kept in homes where they are not loved or in foster care where they may never be loved.

I had to laugh when you said my posts were 'uneducated' - are you saying that there are no pro-lifers who spout off religious garbage to defend their beliefs? I'm not saying pro-lifers are wrong, but it's wrong when they try to shove their beliefs down every else's throats because they somehow believe their opinions are factual or justifiable via religion. I've never understood pro-life logic, nor do I intend to try.
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trina1

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Posted: 05-22-06 18:19pm

I have been involved in this debate (pl vs. Pc) for a very long time and along the way I have learned a few things. First off....Neither side has all the answers....Or there wouldn't be a debate. Also....I have run into a good many on both sides of the issue that are fighting a fight that they don't have all the facts on. While I am very much pro-life....I have learned that sometimes you have to agree to disagree in this battle. Both sides are passionate about their reasons why they feel the way they do and we should always remember that we aren't fighting a faceless, nameless enemy....But another human being who is more than just their opinion on abortion. I have learned that while I may not like an individuals opinion on abortion....I still must respect their right to have it...And since they choose to voice that opinion on a debate board...I do have the right to respectfully voice my opinion also....But I never have the right to judge them as a person, a parent or an individual. I was always taught that you could hate the action....But love the person. We can never hope to fix the problem of abortion on a debate board....But we can use these debates to learn and to understand why the person behind the post feels the way they do. Without debate we cannot have education...And without education....We will never find the answers to problems such as abortion. Jmho
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Moo

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Re: Pro Choice And Pro Life
Posted: 05-22-06 19:08pm

fasttricky wrote:

(1) it would help if both sides recognized the complexity of the problem. .... It cannot be reduced to a matter of simple right and wrong.

agreed


fasttricky wrote:
(2) the only completely satisfactory solution to the abortion problem is to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

agreed


fasttricky wrote:
(3) some abortions may be justified, but all abortions are to be regretted and involve a compromise of values.

i believe in abortion for any reason so I believe all are justified. Often the regret about abortion is not the procedure itself but the position one finds themself in where they then have an abortion


fasttricky wrote:
(4) justification for abortion must always be serious and never trivial. Its casual or routine use as a backup for contraception is indefensible.

i believe that whenever a woman aborts the reason is serious for her. If contraception fails then I see no reason to not have an abortion - that woman was obviously trying to avoid pregnancy - it's her choice whether or not to continue the pregnancy and I doubt many women are casual about having a termination


fasttricky wrote:
(5) the slogan that abortion should be legal, safe, and rare is probably as good a compromise as the situation allows.

it should be as rare as it is required but I agree that it should always be safe and legal.

fasttricky wrote:
(6) pro-life advocates ought to promote effective birth control methods. Pro-choice advocates ought to encourage sexually responsible behavior, including abstinence. What if they joined hands in a common crusade against unwanted pregnancies?

i agree that both sides should want/promote sexual responsibility and effective birth control but the fact is that pl and pc will not agree on the fundamental debate - abortion.

fasttricky wrote:
should unmarried teenage girls be compelled to secure parental permission?

in my opinion, no. Women should be able to obtain an abortion without parental consent, provided they are suitably mature to realise and understand what the procedure is, what the possible effects of not having/having the termination will be.
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Meandering Away

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Posted: 05-25-06 01:25am

moo wrote:
in my opinion, no. Women should be able to obtain an abortion without parental consent, provided they are suitably mature to realise and understand what the procedure is, what the possible effects of not having/having the termination will be.


who decides who is mature enough to understand the procedure because grown women sometimes do not u7nderstand the procedure.
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