Can Someone Explain to Me... Posted: 11-19-06 05:02am
Is there someone out there who can explain
to me, without bringing up religious
views, why abortion is so vilified? I am
devoutly pro-choice, and have several
(what I consider to be) logical and
practical reasons for my position. Every
time I debate my opinions with a
pro-lifer, i'm given religious rhetoric in
lieu of sound argument.
I look forward to hearing other people's
thoughts and experiences, and hope to
become a regular poster on the ehealth
boards.
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diamond splinter
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 611 Location: ,
Posted: 11-19-06 15:18pm
Abortion is so vilified because it is the
taking of a human life nothing to do with
religion
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sandyallen
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Joined: 02 Feb 2004 Posts: 4580
Damianaraven Posted: 11-19-06 16:25pm
I just want to say welcome to ehealth!
Hope you stick around!
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DamianaRaven
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 19 Nov 2006 Posts: 21
Posted: 11-19-06 19:47pm
Thank you, sandy, for the kind welcome.
Thanks to you too, diamond, for stating a
simple yet perfectly logical reason to
oppose abortion.
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jenn_smithson
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Posts: 808 Location: Texas
Posted: 11-20-06 18:34pm
Abortion has been so villified in the past
because, like birth control, it further
separated sex from reproduction. For
some people (and for a variety of
reasons), this is a very negative
evolution of our humanity and of our
understanding of ourselves and of our
bodies because it alters and changes what
some believe to be a "natural" function.
And, when sex was separated from
reproduction, women became more free to
experience and express their sexuality in
ways that gave them pleasure. Many more
people see this as a negative development
either because it led women to be more
like men in their relationships or because
it led women to be more free in other
areas of their lives. If you can control
your fertility and absolutely make it
align with your personal will, you can do
anything else you choose to do. This
means that more women have decided to put
off childbearing to go to college, develop
their own satisfying careers, and to even
forgo marriage. To many people
(obviously not me) this was a very
negative development that led to the
further changing of our basic family
structure and to women's rights and
responsibilities in general.
Those are all nonreligious arguments that
I have heard but I have tried to express
them in a more rational way than they were
expressed to me because the argument that
abortion and birth control should be
illegal so that women go back to their
antiquated gender roles whether they want
to or not does not hold any weight or
validity with me. But I have had enough
sociology to understand why people fear
the vast changes that have occured and may
even try to fight against them.
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Birch
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Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 3962 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 11-20-06 22:03pm
Another anti-abortion argument i've heard
is of course that abortion can be
detrimental to women. Pas aside,
anti-choice feminists say that women
should not have to have abortions-if a
woman becomes pregnant and desires the
child-society is obligated to help her
fullfill her completely normal,
biologically expected role as a mother.
Women should not have to have abortions
because of economics, education, or other
"social" reasons. They think that
society pressures women into abortions for
these reasons, and that is a continuation
of putting women in a second class
position to men.
I can understand this opinion and I share
it. However, I do not think that
legislating against abortion is going to
solve societies' problems. I think that
when you legislate against it without
exception you end up with issues such as
jenn has mentioned previously.
Yet another argument against abortion is
that men do not have "equal" rights
regarding parenting. I think this is a
bogus argument against legal abortion. I
think men should have the same choice as a
woman-to be a parent or not to be a
parent? But this is an entirely different
issue than abortion, and it is not a valid
reason to legislate against abortion.
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DamianaRaven
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 19 Nov 2006 Posts: 21
Posted: 11-21-06 10:28am
Wow! I didn't expect that someone would
actually blow my mind, but here it's done
twice in a row. Jenn and birch managed to
explain the pro-life philosophy in ways I
can understand, if not relate to. I think
it's uber-ironic that both such eloquent
explanations come from (what appear to be)
pro-choice supporters.
Somehow, though, I doubt that devout
pro-life enthusiasts will agree to this
psychoanalysis of their beliefs. I would
very much like to hear from a pro-lifer
who has more to say on the subject than,
"killing babies is bad, mmmkay."
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Carifairy
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Posted: 11-21-06 12:19pm
I would like to add an opinion.
There are many childfree women, like
myself, who are financially well off and
married, but never want babies at all. Pl
people often cannot fathom that a woman
and man may not wish to have children,
even if they technically could afford
them.
All the societal support, millions, and
big house offers, would not make me want
to have a baby.
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diamondsz
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Posted: 11-21-06 12:49pm
carifairy
wrote:
i would like to add an
opinion.
There are many childfree women, like
myself, who are financially well off and
married, but never want babies at all.
Pl people often cannot fathom that a woman
and man may not wish to have children,
even if they technically could afford
them.
All the societal support, millions, and
big house offers, would not make me want
to have a
baby.
to add onto carifairy
then there are woman like me who were
pressured into giving birth at a young age
because I was married and had money. I
hate how society depicts our life, if we
dont follow the 'norm' as they say well
then there must be something wrong with
us. I almost wish that I wasnt naive and
would have waited for children.
I am pro-woman I believe that a woman
should have rights and be allowed to make
choices whether they be good or bad. How
does society evolve if we cant learn from
our mistakes?
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Carifairy
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Posted: 11-21-06 16:13pm
Diamondz..
I am sorry to hear that, and I agree with
you =)
i believe that there can be both pressure
to abort and pressure to have babies.
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diamondsz
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Posted: 11-21-06 17:24pm
carifairy
wrote:
diamondz..
I am sorry to hear that, and I agree with
you =)
i believe that there can be both pressure
to abort and pressure to have
babies.
its all good but thats why im pro-choice I
learned from my mistakes and able to live
and luv my lil munchkins although its
hard!
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jenn_smithson
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Posts: 808 Location: Texas
Posted: 11-22-06 16:00pm
damianaraven
wrote:
somehow, though, I doubt
that devout pro-life enthusiasts will
agree to this psychoanalysis of their
beliefs. I would very much like to hear
from a pro-lifer who has more to say on
the subject than, "killing babies is bad,
mmmkay."
i have had the occasion
to hear quite a vitriolic "prolife"
individual finally be whittled down by a
patient prochoice person who kept
questioning their stance on a few things.
At first, the "prolife" person was loud
and obnoxious and clung desperately to the
over-emotional, melodramatic party line.
Finally, after weeks of this ongoing
discussion, the "prolife" person admitted
that making abortions illegal would
neither stop them from occuring or do
anything to prevent unintended pregnancies
from taking place. Further, the
"prolife" person actually admitted that
making abortion illegal would vastly
restrict women's rights.
Once you get through the emotion, you get
a very real sense of what the movement is
based upon. Those at the top of the
movement know full well what they are
advocating. Those supporting from the
ground have often not taken enough time to
truly examine the issue and thus, they are
being used as pawns for things that they
probably would never have allowed
themselves to be used for if they had
truly given thought to the issue and been
properly educated (from unbiased sources)
on the issues.
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nightangel73
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Re: Can Someone Explain to Me... Posted: 11-25-06 10:43am
damianaraven
wrote:
is there someone out there
who can explain to me, without bringing up
religious views, why abortion is so
vilified?
without bringing up religious views why
killing a newborn baby is vilified?
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Tylanas
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Re: Can Someone Explain to Me... Posted: 11-26-06 20:22pm
nightangel73
wrote:
damianaraven
wrote:
is there someone out there
who can explain to me, without bringing up
religious views, why abortion is so
vilified?
without bringing up religious views why
killing a newborn baby is
vilified?
a fetus and a newborn baby are two
different things, that's why.
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nightangel73
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Re: Can Someone Explain to Me... Posted: 11-26-06 22:39pm
eiri
wrote:
nightangel73
wrote:
damianaraven
wrote:
is there someone out there
who can explain to me, without bringing up
religious views, why abortion is so
vilified?
without bringing up religious views why
killing a newborn baby is
vilified?
a fetus and a newborn baby are two
different things, that's
why.
and the reason they are two different
things is because one is inside the womb
and the other don't. Both look and act
exactly the same. So you see damiana that
is why abortion is vilified.
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Carifairy
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Posted: 11-27-06 00:03am
Nightangel-
well, no, they do not both act the same.
A 6 weeks gestation fetus will not act the
same as a 36 weeks fetus, because the 36
week fetus has thalamus activity and sleep
and wake cycles. The fetus will have
sleep and wake cycles starting at about 26
weeks,and this is also the period of time
in whcih the thalamic connections are
fully developed and functioning. 6 week
fetuses do not have thalamic activity,
this is a known fact.
As far as 26-28 week fetuses, they are no
different than most full term gestation
new borns, except that they are smaller
and may have less developed lungs.
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Tylanas
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Re: Can Someone Explain to Me... Posted: 11-27-06 00:32am
nightangel73
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
nightangel73
wrote:
damianaraven
wrote:
is there someone out there
who can explain to me, without bringing up
religious views, why abortion is so
vilified?
without bringing up religious views why
killing a newborn baby is
vilified?
a fetus and a newborn baby are two
different things, that's
why.
and the reason they are two different
things is because one is inside the womb
and the other don't. Both look and act
exactly the same. So you see damiana
that is why abortion is
vilified.
no, they do not. Do you need a picture of
a 1 day old zygote? How about an embryo?
Even early fetuses have paddles for feet
and hands, tails, and large nostrils. In
many stages of development, a human, fish,
and chimpanzee fetus are indistinguishable
from each other; and none of them look
anything at all like their baby
counterparts.
They also do not act the same. A baby
cries. A fetus cannot. Its lungs are not
connected, literally it is impossible for
it to cry. The lungs become connected
correctly and all mucus in them is
absorbed into to the baby's body within 60
seconds of birth. The entire
cardiovascular system rewires itself in
this time period.
So you see damiana, that is why abortion
is not villified.
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nightangel73
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Joined: 09 Nov 2005 Posts: 2487 Location: ,
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Re: Can Someone Explain to Me... Posted: 11-27-06 07:16am
eiri
wrote:
nightangel73
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
nightangel73
wrote:
damianaraven
wrote:
is there someone out there
who can explain to me, without bringing up
religious views, why abortion is so
vilified?
without bringing up religious views why
killing a newborn baby is
vilified?
a fetus and a newborn baby are two
different things, that's
why.
and the reason they are two different
things is because one is inside the womb
and the other don't. Both look and act
exactly the same. So you see damiana
that is why abortion is
vilified.
no, they do not. Do you need a picture
of a 1 day old zygote? How about an
embryo? Even early fetuses have paddles
for feet and hands, tails, and large
nostrils. In many stages of development,
a human, fish, and chimpanzee fetus are
indistinguishable from each other; and
none of them look anything at all like
their baby counterparts.
They also do not act the same. A baby
cries. A fetus cannot. Its lungs are
not connected, literally it is impossible
for it to cry. The lungs become
connected correctly and all mucus in them
is absorbed into to the baby's body within
60 seconds of birth. The entire
cardiovascular system rewires itself in
this time period.
So you see damiana, that is why abortion
is not
villified.
omg the fetus can't cry but the newborn
baby does! What a difference!! Yeah
let's kill the fetus cause he can't cry!
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diamond splinter
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 611 Location: ,
Posted: 11-27-06 09:13am
Actually a fetous can cry I have a scan
video from my daughter at 24 weeks and on
it you can clearly see that she is crying
there have also been cases of fetouses
being recorded crying on fetal heart
monitors
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Tylanas
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Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
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Re: Can Someone Explain to Me... Posted: 11-27-06 10:52am
nightangel73
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
nightangel73
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
nightangel73
wrote:
damianaraven
wrote:
is there someone out there
who can explain to me, without bringing up
religious views, why abortion is so
vilified?
without bringing up religious views why
killing a newborn baby is
vilified?
a fetus and a newborn baby are two
different things, that's
why.
and the reason they are two different
things is because one is inside the womb
and the other don't. Both look and act
exactly the same. So you see damiana
that is why abortion is
vilified.
no, they do not. Do you need a picture
of a 1 day old zygote? How about an
embryo? Even early fetuses have paddles
for feet and hands, tails, and large
nostrils. In many stages of
development, a human, fish, and chimpanzee
fetus are indistinguishable from each
other; and none of them look anything at
all like their baby counterparts.
They also do not act the same. A baby
cries. A fetus cannot. Its lungs are
not connected, literally it is impossible
for it to cry. The lungs become
connected correctly and all mucus in them
is absorbed into to the baby's body within
60 seconds of birth. The entire
cardiovascular system rewires itself in
this time period.
So you see damiana, that is why abortion
is not
villified.
omg the fetus can't cry but the newborn
baby does! What a difference!! Yeah
let's kill the fetus cause he can't
cry!
