I've been reading a lot of "prolife"
documents lately for work and have also
been comparing them to the agencies
websites. One of them admonished users
of the everyday birth control pill saying
something to the effect of - "if you are
using birth control, stop now. Leave the
number and spacing of your children up to
the lord. The lord would never give you
what you cannot handle. Surrender to
god's will on this most important issue
and allow yourself to be predisposed to
welcoming your pre-born children into your
life."
another admonished condom users, even to
prevent the spread of hiv (apparently,
according to some "prolifers," you are
either supposed to abstain from sex if
your partner/spouse is hiv positive .O.R
be prepared to be infected anyway), using
the similar arguments.
Okay. My aversion to most of the
comments not withstanding, it did make me
start thinking about god's will. Now,
the same people who wrote these comments
believe, emphatically, that god is
omnipotent. The definition, and the way
we understand this word in reference to
god, is all-powerful and almighty. So,
my question is: if god is truly omnipotent
and his will is that you become pregnant
or have a child, then wouldn't he be able
to overcome a thin layer of latex or some
additional hormones?
If, what you do in your day to day life
prevents "god's will" from occurring, then
doesn't that necessarily call into
question god's omnipotence? Is god
impotent omnipotently speaking?
Or, is it that the people claiming
to know "god's will" are just frequently
talking out of their a$s? What do you
think?
|
Jules
Moderator
Joined: 19 Aug 2006 Posts: 3840 Location: Merrie Englande, UK
the definition, and the way
we understand this word in reference to
god, is all-powerful and almighty. So,
my question is: if god is truly omnipotent
and his will is that you become pregnant
or have a child, then wouldn't he be able
to overcome a thin layer of latex or some
additional hormones?
If, what you do in your day to day life
prevents "god's will" from occurring, then
doesn't that necessarily call into
question god's omnipotence? Is god
impotent omnipotently speaking?
.
The response I have had from .Christians,
when asking similar questions regarding
.God's omnipotence, is that he could
overcome the 'thin latex' etc but because
he has
given us free will he leaves it up
to us to decide whether to follow his
'rules' or not.
the definition, and the way
we understand this word in reference to
god, is all-powerful and almighty. So,
my question is: if god is truly omnipotent
and his will is that you become pregnant
or have a child, then wouldn't he be able
to overcome a thin layer of latex or some
additional hormones?
If, what you do in your day to day life
prevents "god's will" from occurring, then
doesn't that necessarily call into
question god's omnipotence? Is god
impotent omnipotently speaking?
.
The response I have had from .Christians,
when asking similar questions regarding
.God's omnipotence, is that he could
overcome the 'thin latex' etc but because
he has
given us free will he leaves it up
to us to decide whether to follow his
'rules' or
not.
this would be fine if
they could then prove that god has any
rules regarding condoms, birth control, or
other contraception. He doesn't. If
you take a literal interpretation from the
bible then the only rules that god has
ever sent directly to man (if you are a
believer) were the ten commandments.
Nothing in any of those commandments
relates to contraception.
And, this is important because
contraception, even during biblical times,
was widely used. It was imperfect,
obviously, but both abortion and
rudimentary forms of birth control were
widely available and used. So, the men
who wrote the bible would have known something about the
contraception at that time and also what
the "church" or religious elders were
teaching about it. To not include a
statement regarding this seems to me a
large indication that god's "rules" were
severely lacking in that department.
But, you brought up free will so I will
just ask if our free will outweighs god's
will?
I've heard it explained that god gave us
free will, but he knows the outcome of
every decision we could make, and he wants
us to make the right choice.
I guess this is more free will than
determinism...
This didn't cut it with me, as if god
doesn't know what our choices will be,
then he's not omnipotent.
I'm confused.
I looked up free will on wikipedia, and
there is some serious reading available on
it.
i've heard it explained that
god gave us free will, but he knows the
outcome of every decision we could make,
and he wants us to make the right
choice.
I guess this is more free will than
determinism...
This didn't cut it with me, as if god
doesn't know what our choices will be,
then he's not omnipotent.
I'm confused.
I looked up free will on wikipedia, and
there is some serious reading available on
it.
in the end, for god to be omnipotent, he
already knows the desicion we are going to
make. This means that any and all
obstacles he puts in our way he does with
the full knowledge of what choice we will
make. This also means we don't
actually have free will... And also that
god sets us up for failure. He knew eve
would take the apple; but if he truly
loved them, and didn't want them to leave,
then why did he create the temptation, if
he already knew she'd take it? And then
why did he act all pissed off when she did
it? He already knew she was going to...
|
Amaria
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 47
Posted: 01-13-07 12:23pm
What I believe is, we have free will, in
order to glorify his name. How does
that work? Well, if adam & eve
didn't sin, then jesus would have never
had to die for our sins, and we would not
"owe" him.
I have wondered about this myself, but
supposedly he has reasons we cannot (as we
are not all knowing, like god) possibly
understand fully.
I do not believe that god makes bad things
happen to us. I believe that everything
we do has an affect on our's (and other's)
lives. He wants us to come to him,
asking him to intervene. Why? For
his glory. Yes, it does seem a pretty
vain existance... But he's god! -
maybe he doesn't see it so much as vain,
but just the truth, "i am the greatest
being alive, I should be recognized as
such.".
I also think god takes pleasure in seeing
us do good... It is pleasing to him,
because it is all thanks to him.
Last edited by Amaria on 01-14-07 02:39am; edited 1 time in total
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
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Thanked:0
Posted: 01-13-07 12:59pm
amaria
wrote:
what I believe is, we have
free will, in order to glorify his name.
How does that work? Well, if adam
& eve didn't sin, then jesus would
have never had to die for our sins, and we
would not "owe" him.
I have wondered about this myself, but
supposedly he has reasons we cannot (as we
are not all knowing, like god) possibly
understand fully.
I do not believe that god makes things
happen to us. I believe that everything
we do has an affect on our's (and other's)
lives. He wants us to come to him,
asking him to intervene. Why? For
his glory. Yes, it does seem a pretty
vain existance... But he's god! -
maybe he doesn't see it so much as vain,
but just the truth, "i am the greatest
being alive, I should be recognized as
such.".
I also think god takes pleasure in seeing
us do good... It is pleasing to him,
because it is all thanks to
him.
but then that is not true omnipotence.
|
Amaria
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 47
Posted: 01-13-07 13:23pm
"but then that is not true omnipotence.
"
what do you mean?
|
Jules
Moderator
Joined: 19 Aug 2006 Posts: 3840 Location: Merrie Englande, UK
Thanks: 91
Thanked:77
Posted: 01-13-07 13:42pm
amaria
wrote:
i have wondered about this myself, but
supposedly he has reasons we cannot (as we
are not all knowing, like god) possibly
understand
fully.
but that's just a cop-out!
amaria
wrote:
.What I believe is, we have
free will, in order to glorify his name.
How does that work? Well, if adam &
eve didn't sin, then jesus would have
never had to die for our sins, and we
would not "owe" him.
how exactly did .Jesus dying 'save us from
our sins'? Nightangel very kindly tried
to explain this one to me but i'm
obviously just not getting it because it
just doesn't make sense to me!
|
Amaria
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 47
Posted: 01-13-07 14:11pm
purestgreen
wrote:
amaria
wrote:
i have wondered about this myself, but
supposedly he has reasons we cannot (as we
are not all knowing, like god) possibly
understand
fully.
but that's just a cop-out!
amaria
wrote:
.What I believe is, we have
free will, in order to glorify his name.
How does that work? Well, if adam
& eve didn't sin, then jesus would
have never had to die for our sins, and we
would not "owe" him.
how exactly did .Jesus dying 'save us from
our sins'? Nightangel very kindly
tried to explain this one to me but i'm
obviously just not getting it because it
just doesn't make sense to
me!
i can only comment on what I believe, but
before jesus died there had to be a
sacrifice made by a priest that was the
only one who could talk to god...
Otherwise, when we died, we would go to
hell. So, god gave his son (in human
form) as a sacrifice for our sins, and
jesus went into hell & suffered for
us... Sort of a huge payment for all of
our sins, the "catch" being that we could
only recieve forgiveness, if we went
through him... Acknowledging his
sacrife for us.
Sounds pretty crazy when I write it out
like that, but i'm sure others could have
said it much better than i.
|
Jules
Moderator
Joined: 19 Aug 2006 Posts: 3840 Location: Merrie Englande, UK
Thanks: 91
Thanked:77
Posted: 01-13-07 16:20pm
Jesus went to hell?! Can you show me the
bit of the bible where it says that? I
never knew that.
|
AyaMiyaki
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 8535 Location: Floating on a cloud, United States
Thanks: 217
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Posted: 01-13-07 16:35pm
purestgreen
wrote:
jesus went to hell?! Can
you show me the bit of the bible where it
says that? I never knew that.
.The way it was explained to me, .Jesus
took our sins upon himself. So upon his
death, he was separated from .God. Which
is why he cried out ".Father, why have you
forsaken me?" .Because of our sins, he
decended into .Hell upon his death, and
was resurrected three days later.
Joined: 19 Aug 2006 Posts: 3840 Location: Merrie Englande, UK
Thanks: 91
Thanked:77
Posted: 01-13-07 17:51pm
ayamiyaki
wrote:
purestgreen
wrote:
jesus went to hell?! Can
you show me the bit of the bible where it
says that? I never knew that.
.The way it was explained to me, .Jesus
took our sins upon himself. So upon his
death, he was separated from .God. Which
is why he cried out ".Father, why have you
forsaken me?" .Because of our sins, he
decended into .Hell upon his death, and
was resurrected three days later.
thank you that is a very
interesting website. I have enjoyed
having a read of that! Reminds me of my
.Divinity classes at school!
|
jenn_smithson
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Posts: 808 Location: Texas
Posted: 01-13-07 20:23pm
amaria
wrote:
i can only comment on what I believe, but
before jesus died there had to be a
sacrifice made by a priest that was the
only one who could talk to god...
Otherwise, when we died, we would go to
hell.
ok, first, if this
"priest" was the only one who could talk
to god, then prayer isn't necessary by lay
people. Second, you don't have to
refrain from "sinning" if all you have to
do is make sure you pay off a priest to do
a sacrifice for you upon your death. If
that were true, then rich people would be
the only people in heaven. In fact, one
of the reasons that martin luther had such
a problem with the catholic church and
started the protestant reformation was the
practice of paying the church (a priest or
someone else affiliated with the church)
to be forgiven of their "sins" without
having to go to confession or do a
penance.
So, if this were true, then it wouldn't
matter if you led a life of "sin" if, on
your death bed, you asked for forgiveness
or payed off the "priest."
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
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Posted: 01-13-07 22:04pm
amaria
wrote:
"but then that is not true
omnipotence. "
what do you
mean?
if god gives you the choice, then he
cannot know the outcome; for if he does,
then he's not actually giving you a choice
since you're going to do what he already
knows what you're going to do. That is
not free will.
Free will and omnipotence cannot coexist.
|
Amaria
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 47
Posted: 01-14-07 00:01am
eiri
wrote:
amaria
wrote:
"but then that is not true
omnipotence. "
what do you
mean?
if god gives you the choice, then he
cannot know the outcome; for if he does,
then he's not actually giving you a choice
since you're going to do what he already
knows what you're going to do. That is
not free will.
Free will and omnipotence cannot
coexist.
see, I don't see it that way at all...
For instance, just because he knows what
you will do, does not mean that's what he
wants you to do.
I'm not quite sure I understand your
reasoning.
|
Amaria
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 47
Posted: 01-14-07 00:04am
jenn_smithson
wrote:
amaria
wrote:
i can only comment on what I believe, but
before jesus died there had to be a
sacrifice made by a priest that was the
only one who could talk to god...
Otherwise, when we died, we would go to
hell.
ok, first, if this
"priest" was the only one who could talk
to god, then prayer isn't necessary by lay
people. Second, you don't have to
refrain from "sinning" if all you have to
do is make sure you pay off a priest to do
a sacrifice for you upon your death. If
that were true, then rich people would be
the only people in heaven. In fact, one
of the reasons that martin luther had such
a problem with the catholic church and
started the protestant reformation was the
practice of paying the church (a priest or
someone else affiliated with the church)
to be forgiven of their "sins" without
having to go to confession or do a
penance.
So, if this were true, then it wouldn't
matter if you led a life of "sin" if, on
your death bed, you asked for forgiveness
or payed off the
"priest."
i am wondering if you read the part of my
post where I said "before jesus died".
I am not catholic, so I cannot comment on
what they believe, but the way I was
taught, is that god knows your heart. He
knows if you are truly repentant.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
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Posted: 01-14-07 00:59am
amaria
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
amaria
wrote:
"but then that is not true
omnipotence. "
what do you
mean?
if god gives you the choice, then he
cannot know the outcome; for if he does,
then he's not actually giving you a choice
since you're going to do what he already
knows what you're going to do. That is
not free will.
Free will and omnipotence cannot
coexist.
see, I don't see it that way at all...
For instance, just because he knows what
you will do, does not mean that's what he
wants you to do.
I'm not quite sure I understand your
reasoning.
the characters in a movie that I have
already seen are going to do what I
already know is going to happen. For god,
we are like watching a movie he already
knows every line to. And just because I
don't want the hero of the movie to
kill the bay guy doesn't mean he's going
to change his actions. It has already
been determined; there is nothing that can
be done. That is true omnipotence, and
that is what god must have for true
christianity to make any kind of sense.
|
Amaria
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 47
Posted: 01-14-07 01:32am
I think I see what your saying.
Imagine that your not watching the movie,
but directing it... You know what every
line is, but you can change it (god
doesn't have script writers &
producers to deal with lol), if one of the
actors just ask you to change it.
It may sound like utter nonsense, but i'm
trying to incorcorate your symbolism into
my belief.
So what, now? Are you going to say, "but
he would know if anyone is goin to ask!"?
Well, suppose (going away from your
analogy) that god does give us little
nudges (some call them signs), to help us
ask.
Maybe god works more in our lives than we
know? One thing is for sure, I am
definitely not omnipotent... I have to
rely alot on faith, as god asks us to do.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
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Thanked:0
Posted: 01-14-07 01:46am
amaria
wrote:
i think I see what your
saying.
Imagine that your not watching the movie,
but directing it... You know what every
line is, but you can change it (god
doesn't have script writers &
producers to deal with lol), if one of the
actors just ask you to change it.
It may sound like utter nonsense, but i'm
trying to incorcorate your symbolism into
my belief.
your belief and what the bible says are
two different things. True omnipotence
and true free will cannot exist, for
previously explained resons. If one of
the actors asked god to change the script
it would be no problem because he already
knew the actor was going to ask to do
that. You see? So since go already
knew... The person didn't actually make
that desicion themselves, since it was
already in his plan, since he knows all.
Quote:
so what, now?
Are you going to say, "but he would know
if anyone is goin to ask!"? Well,
suppose (going away from your analogy)
that god does give us little nudges (some
call them signs), to help us
ask.
i did in fact say that. But once again,
so what if he gives signs? He knew he was
going to give a sign in order to get you
to ask to change the script. He already
knew. If he was truly omnipotent that is.
So the nudge was already part of the big
play.
Quote:
maybe god works
more in our lives than we know? One
thing is for sure, I am definitely not
omnipotent... I have to rely alot on
faith, as god asks us to
do.
i maintain my position, as it hasn't been
disproven yet.
that is a very
interesting website. I have enjoyed
having a read of that! Reminds me of my
.Divinity classes at school! 