I said the same exact thing
to her, Birch. She and the child are in a
lot of danger right now, and it is her
fault after all. She knows this now
though, and hopefully she'll get to a
doctor and receive some proper prenatal
care. That's all we can hope for, now that
she's decided to keep the
pregnancy.
Exactly. The girl is concerned about the
baby having problems, which is definitely
a possibility at this point. I am not
going to sugar coat it and lie to her.
She is going to have to go to the doctor,
and I think she should be prepared. I
think she should know what the
possibilities are. If you want us to lie
to her, Birch, and tell her everything is
sure to be fine, I can't imagine how that
will help in the long run. If she is
going to raise this baby, she needs to
learn about babies and how fragile they
are. I bet she is learning a lot right
now, and I am sure her doctor will have a
lot more information for her. And, yes, I
would say the same to her in person. I
would not lie to her here or to her face.
I never called her a terrible person. I
have seen you make some posts that were
far less than tactful, so don't act high
and mighty just because I told the girl
the truth. And, no, I am not a man,
although I can't imagine what that has to
do with anything unless you are
sexist.
There is a difference between "not lying
to her" and being after-the-fact
self-righteous-guilt-trip-inducing.
My less than tactful posts are towards
people who deserve it, in situations that
call for it. This is a scared seventeen
year old in a country where abortion is
illegal. Not only did she try to self
abort, but she tried to harm herself as
well. Your comments are meant to cast
guilt. Think about what you say before
you say it.
Eiri, you are much more helpful than
Llewellyn, and didn't say anything nearly
as guilt-inducing. I'm sure that what you
post is what you would actually say to a
person sitting across from you. Llewellyn
comes across as ingenuous. And yes, I'd
say that to a person sitting across from
me.
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 06-09-07 16:42pm
It's the same kind of lax logic skill
thats makes posters respond to threads
like "I'm pregnant and don't want to be"
with "you should've used protection" or
"you shouldn't of had sex". How is that
helpful?
What's done is done; what should or should
not of happened is irrelevant.
This kind of reasoning is an eyesore of
the human race.
|
Llewellyn
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 1743 Location: NY
Posted: 06-10-07 02:10am
If you do not like my posts, you are
welcome to make posts of your own giving
her whatever advice and information you
want. I don't see how criticizing my
posts and trying to call me names is going
to help her. I stand by what I said.
|
Birch
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Posted: 06-10-07 08:40am
Llewellyn
wrote:
If you do not like my posts,
you are welcome to make posts of your own
giving her whatever advice and information
you want. I don't see how criticizing my
posts and trying to call me names is going
to help her. I stand by what I
said.
Thanks for the advice, I already did. I
am also welcome to criticize your posts as
well, especially if I believe they are
unnecessary and narcisstic. And if I were
"trying" to call you names, I would of. I
was describing your response as illogical,
and guilt-inducing. At least you haven't
refuted that.
Maybe you don't understand that I am not
specifically speaking about your comments
to 'go to a doctor' or the like, just the
first paragraph that I separated and
quoted.
I don't understand how you can stand by
what you said, and call it reasonable and
helpful to a scared seventeen year old who
just took a gazillion harmful drugs.
These are real people on the other side of
the screen-they have done real things, and
take what is said seriously.
Don't project your own values on posters
like
this-it's not about you and what
you want or think about what they have
done in their past.
|
Llewellyn
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 1743 Location: NY
Posted: 06-11-07 23:46pm
Birch
wrote:
Thanks for the advice, I already did. I
am also welcome to criticize your posts as
well, especially if I believe they are
unnecessary and narcisstic. And if I were
"trying" to call you names, I would of. I
was describing your response as illogical,
and guilt-inducing. At least you haven't
refuted that.
Maybe you don't understand that I am not
specifically speaking about your comments
to 'go to a doctor' or the like, just the
first paragraph that I separated and
quoted.
I don't understand how you can stand by
what you said, and call it reasonable and
helpful to a scared seventeen year old who
just took a gazillion harmful drugs.
These are real people on the other side of
the screen-they have done real things, and
take what is said seriously.
Don't project your own values on posters
like
this-it's not about you and what
you want or think about what they have
done in their
past.
Once again, I stand by what I said. I
don't know why you have such a problem
with that. People are allowed to give
advice and opinions here. I gave mine.
If you do not agree with my posts, fine.
I believe your posts are illogical,
guilt-inducing, narcissistic, and
unnecessary at this point. I don't see
what the big deal is. I am not trying to
debate with you. We disagree. Not
everyone agrees with everyone else. It's
really not a big deal. Drop it.
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 06-12-07 10:44am
Llewellyn
wrote:
Birch
wrote:
Thanks for the advice, I already did. I
am also welcome to criticize your posts as
well, especially if I believe they are
unnecessary and narcisstic. And if I were
"trying" to call you names, I would of. I
was describing your response as illogical,
and guilt-inducing. At least you haven't
refuted that.
Maybe you don't understand that I am not
specifically speaking about your comments
to 'go to a doctor' or the like, just the
first paragraph that I separated and
quoted.
I don't understand how you can stand by
what you said, and call it reasonable and
helpful to a scared seventeen year old who
just took a gazillion harmful drugs.
These are real people on the other side of
the screen-they have done real things, and
take what is said seriously.
Don't project your own values on posters
like
this-it's not about you and what
you want or think about what they have
done in their
past.
Once again, I stand by what I said. I
don't know why you have such a problem
with that. People are allowed to give
advice and opinions here. I gave mine.
If you do not agree with my posts, fine.
I believe your posts are illogical,
guilt-inducing, narcissistic, and
unnecessary at this point. I don't see
what the big deal is. I am not trying to
debate with you. We disagree. Not
everyone agrees with everyone else. It's
really not a big deal. Drop
it.
Because this situation, where a girl has
taken all kinds of pills and she's
pregnant, is "not a big deal"?
See?
You don't understand the gravity of what
you can do on here. It's not about me
disagreeing with your posts, or thinking
you're not allowed to "give advice" (if
that's what you call it), it's that you
don't understand that there are real
people behind these computer screens, and
you don't know how sensitive they may be,
and you have to watch what you say in
certain situations. It is a big deal.
I'm sorry you have been misunderstanding
me from the get-go.
|
Llewellyn
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 1743 Location: NY
Posted: 06-12-07 13:38pm
Birch
wrote:
Because this situation, where a girl has
taken all kinds of pills and she's
pregnant, is "not a big deal"?
See?
You don't understand the gravity of what
you can do on here. It's not about me
disagreeing with your posts, or thinking
you're not allowed to "give advice" (if
that's what you call it), it's that you
don't understand that there are real
people behind these computer screens, and
you don't know how sensitive they may be,
and you have to watch what you say in
certain situations. It is a big deal.
I'm sorry you have been misunderstanding
me from the
get-go.
Oh, no, I did not mean that this girl's
situation is not a big deal or that what
we say to people here is not a big deal.
What I meant was that it is not a big deal
if two people disagree like we do. I
don't see the need for all the debate.
She did put her body and her baby's
through a lot. I don't see what is so
wrong with telling her that. If you think
it was a little too harsh, you are welcome
to that opinion. I don't see the need to
keep going back and forth debating it
though. Like I said, yes, I certainly
would say the same thing to her in person.
I know she is a real person, but I just
disagree that what I said was out of line
in any way.
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 142
Thanked:13
Posted: 06-12-07 14:58pm
Llewellyn
wrote:
Birch
wrote:
Because this situation, where a girl has
taken all kinds of pills and she's
pregnant, is "not a big deal"?
See?
You don't understand the gravity of what
you can do on here. It's not about me
disagreeing with your posts, or thinking
you're not allowed to "give advice" (if
that's what you call it), it's that you
don't understand that there are real
people behind these computer screens, and
you don't know how sensitive they may be,
and you have to watch what you say in
certain situations. It is a big deal.
I'm sorry you have been misunderstanding
me from the
get-go.
Oh, no, I did not mean that this girl's
situation is not a big deal or that what
we say to people here is not a big deal.
What I meant was that it is not a big deal
if two people disagree like we do. I
don't see the need for all the debate.
She did put her body and her baby's
through a lot. I don't see what is so
wrong with telling her that. If you think
it was a little too harsh, you are welcome
to that opinion. I don't see the need to
keep going back and forth debating it
though. Like I said, yes, I certainly
would say the same thing to her in person.
I know she is a real person, but I just
disagree that what I said was out of line
in any way.
I apologize-I often think that someone
might have the ability to understand
something that they do not, and then I
optimistically go through the process of
working it out with them, only to come to
such a bunker as this.
If you would really go up to a 17 year old
stranger who told you about her situation
and her pill taking, and say what you did,
then we not only have a "disagreement of
opinion", we have deeper conflicts indeed
that cannot be worked out over a computer
screen.
|
Llewellyn
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 1743 Location: NY
Posted: 06-12-07 15:06pm
Seriously, act like an adult. Keep your
insults to yourself. You should have
learned in kindergarten that it's ok for
people to disagree.
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 142
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Posted: 06-12-07 16:56pm
Llewellyn
wrote:
Seriously, act like an
adult. Keep your insults to yourself.
You should have learned in kindergarten
that it's ok for people to
disagree.
I have not insulted you, nor do I have a
problem with us disagreeing. You clearly
do not understand what I am trying to say,
and take this as slander against you or
something.
There is a deep crevasse in your
understanding of people if you would be
comfortable going up to this poster as a
stranger and saying what you said in
person.
I would not walk up to a disturbed 17 year
old girl and berate her for what she did
to her "poor baby" after she took so many
pills.
I thought you might be able to understand
this, but you do not, so we have reached
an impasse. You are a different 'type' of
person.
[I reread my last post and thought you
might have taken "bunker" as an insult-I
only meant it as 'an object getting in the
way'. Like a bunker on the beach at
Normandy, per se.]
|
Llewellyn
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 1743 Location: NY
Posted: 06-12-07 17:15pm
No, I did not take "bunker" to be an
insult. However, I do take it as an
insult when you say or imply that most
posts are illogical, guilt-inducing, and
ingenuous. Or when you say or imply that
I have no tact, lax logic skills, and that
my reasoning is an eyesore of the human
race. Or when you imply that I am too
stupid to understand or agree with you.
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 142
Thanked:13
Posted: 06-12-07 21:21pm
Llewellyn
wrote:
No, I did not take "bunker"
to be an insult. However, I do take it as
an insult when you say or imply that most
posts are illogical, guilt-inducing, and
ingenuous. Or when you say or imply that
I have no tact, lax logic skills, and that
my reasoning is an eyesore of the human
race.
It is interesting that you address what
you perceive as my "tone" versus my
content. All of these things listed are
true; therefore, they cannot be an insult
unless you have come to the understanding
that you had no tact, etc, and just
haven't gotten around to admitting it yet.
You are being highly defensive without
addressing any content.
If you say something illogical or
insensitive, then it is illogical or
insensitive; and it isn't an insult to
point it out.
If I say the earth is square, and you show
me the earth is round, then you are not
insulting me.
wrote:
Or when you imply that I am
too stupid to understand or agree with
you.
No, not that you are "too stupid" just a
different "type" of person, like I already
said. If you do not understand how your
actions were insensitive, even after
someone pointed it out, then you are a
different "type" of person than me.
I am sorry you can not understand what I
am trying to say. So often, people jump
the gun and make assumptions without
sitting and thinking. I think this is one
of those situations.
|
Llewellyn
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 1743 Location: NY
Posted: 06-12-07 22:04pm
So now you are trying to say that you
never said or implied that I have no tact
when you said, "go find a dictionary and
look up tact"? So what exactly did you
mean when you said that then? If you said
it, don't act like I made it up. That was
in the content, not the tone of your post.
That was a direct quote from you. I can
quote you on all of the other things too
if you have already forgotten that you
said them.
You seem to have no idea what the
difference between "fact" and "opinion"
is. What is illogical and insensitive is
an opinion, not a fact. If I say
something that is incorrect, as in not a
fact, then you can let me know. However,
if it is your opinion that what I say is
insensitive, tough. That's your opinion,
not a fact, and I disagree with it.
Honestly, how long do you want to keep
your childish debate up? Just drop it. I
have no idea what you want and what your
point with all of this is. If you just
wanted to let me know that you disagree
with my post, then yeah, I got the point.
If you have another goal with all of this,
you'll have to let me know because I have
no idea what you want at this point.
|
Birch
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Posted: 06-12-07 22:53pm
Llewellyn
wrote:
So now you are trying to say
that you never said or implied that I have
no tact when you said, "go find a
dictionary and look up tact"? So what
exactly did you mean when you said that
then? If you said it, don't act like I
made it up. That was in the content, not
the tone of your post. That was a direct
quote from you. I can quote you on all of
the other things too if you have already
forgotten that you said them.
You seem to have no idea what the
difference between "fact" and "opinion"
is. What is illogical and insensitive is
an opinion, not a fact. If I say
something that is incorrect, as in not a
fact, then you can let me know. However,
if it is your opinion that what I say is
insensitive, tough. That's your opinion,
not a fact, and I disagree with it.
Honestly, how long do you want to keep
your childish debate up? Just drop it. I
have no idea what you want and what your
point with all of this is. If you just
wanted to let me know that you disagree
with my post, then yeah, I got the point.
If you have another goal with all of this,
you'll have to let me know because I have
no idea what you want at this
point.
You clearly do not understand.
This is not childish. It is very serious.
You do not understand that you were
insensitive, and tactless. You also do
not understand that what you say can
affect people.
These aren't insults when they are true.
There is no opinion about the
insensitivity of your comments, and if you
believe there is, then there is a chasm
running deep between you and kindness.
The earth is round, the sky is blue, your
comments were insensitive and tactless. I
have only been trying to get you to
understand my viewpoint. As you continue
to respond, I assume you are looking for
answers as well.
Hopefully in the future you will consider
what you say and how it may make people
feel.
|
Llewellyn
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 1743 Location: NY
Posted: 06-13-07 00:55am
No, I do not understand, but don't worry
about it. I apologize. I did not realize
what I was dealing with. Are you
currently in therapy? If not, it sounds
like it might be a good option for you.
Feeling that one's opinions are facts, or
that one is a moral authority, and other
such things is a sign of quite a few
mental conditions. Those feelings are
often called "delusions of grandeur" or
"megalomania." Don't panic though, a lot
of conditions respond very well to
therapy, medications, or both. Good luck.
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 142
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Posted: 06-13-07 10:21am
Llewellyn
wrote:
No, I do not understand, but
don't worry about it. I apologize. I did
not realize what I was dealing with. Are
you currently in therapy? If not, it
sounds like it might be a good option for
you. Feeling that one's opinions are
facts, or that one is a moral authority,
and other such things is a sign of quite a
few mental conditions. Those feelings are
often called "delusions of grandeur" or
"megalomania." Don't panic though, a lot
of conditions respond very well to
therapy, medications, or both. Good
luck.
Actually, what you are referring to is
called "grandiosity" specifically, as in
the DSM IV-R. Just so you have the term
right next time you use it.
I think you are trying desperately to save
face. Your comments were insensitive and
tactless, and the fact that you feel
comfortable walking up to a complete
stranger and telling her such shows your
character.
A person doing that is not a kind, caring
person, interested in the betterment of
the individual in front of them, and
that's not an opinion. If you think there
is hedge room there, then again (I'm just
repeating myself here since you refuse to
answer content and instead discuss
peripherals) there is a huge chasm in your
understanding of how to treat people with
kindness and understanding.
I've enjoyed chatting with you, honestly.
It's very entertaining, and while this
last post of yours was uncalled for, I was
amused by the nature of it.
Thanks PurestGreen (I'm assuming it was
you) for switching this over, and I like
your title.
|
Jules
Moderator
Joined: 19 Aug 2006 Posts: 3795 Location: Merrie Englande, UK
Thanks: 87
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Posted: 06-13-07 10:38am
Birch
wrote:
Thanks PurestGreen (I'm assuming it was
you) for switching this over, and I like
your title.
Twas I and you're welcome
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 06-13-07 10:43am
Personally, I agree with Llewellyn, and
yes, I would have said those things to the
girl's face too. It would have been
peppered in with consoling her and giving
kind advice, but yeah. Part of me would
have gone "You do realize you've cause
un-fixable harm to the fetus?"
|
Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4044 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 142
Thanked:13
Posted: 06-13-07 11:01am
Eiri
wrote:
Personally, I agree with
Llewellyn, and yes, I would have said
those things to the girl's face too. It
would have been peppered in with consoling
her and giving kind advice, but yeah. Part
of me would have gone "You do realize
you've cause un-fixable harm to the
fetus?"
But why? What would that have donel? Why
is it a stranger's place to tell her what
may not even be true? No one knows the
extent of damage.
Help me understand, Eiri! I'm being
sincere.
In the unlikely event this actually
happened, I would have said to her (among
other things-like, 'how are you feeling
now') 'I have no idea what may have
happened, lets get you to a doctor to find
out'. I would certainly not have
compounded her own grief with the
condemnation of a complete stranger.
What does a prochoicer care what the
mother did to the fetus if her intent was
to abort it? How can they then turn
around after finding out the mother wants
to keep the fetus and be a turdling about
what she may have done to the fetus?
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 06-13-07 11:39am
Birch
wrote:
Eiri
wrote:
Personally, I agree with
Llewellyn, and yes, I would have said
those things to the girl's face too. It
would have been peppered in with consoling
her and giving kind advice, but yeah. Part
of me would have gone "You do realize
you've cause un-fixable harm to the
fetus?"
But why? What would that have donel? Why
is it a stranger's place to tell her what
may not even be true? No one knows the
extent of damage.
Help me understand, Eiri! I'm being
sincere.
In the unlikely event this actually
happened, I would have said to her (among
other things-like, 'how are you feeling
now') 'I have no idea what may have
happened, lets get you to a doctor to find
out'. I would certainly not have
compounded her own grief with the
condemnation of a complete stranger.
What does a prochoicer care what the
mother did to the fetus if her intent was
to abort it? How can they then turn
around after finding out the mother wants
to keep the fetus and be a turdling about
what she may have done to the
fetus?
Because now that she has chosen to keep
it, she must step up to what she has done
it it. I think it's a pretty simple
concept...
